Fake ancients on ebay

All seem to be by the same seller too:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTONINUS-PIUS-...in_0?hash=item4a9a67ef7a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


stainless

 

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I love the note:

Every coin has its reproduction! So if you see it in a site that hosts replicas, that does not mean this item is replica as well because the antique remembers thousends of coins being produced of each single one . The authenticity is being prooved by the coin's diameter and weight and also the silver color of the metal - original patina.

That sure does put MY mind at easy. He is offering money back guarantee with no time limit...wonder if he would honor that...probably wont be an issue as few people send a coin to be double checked by a real expert (and I dont mean a TPG)

to be honest...if you were to post ever fake ancient offered as real on ebay...it would be a full time job.

 

Hmm. I know a few people at "major auction houses." Maybe I should give it a try?

 

Whats new with fakebay? hey now he has 8 sales. ebay changed it so other people can't contacted bidders to let them know they might be getting ripped off!! now thats customer service.
Bob

 

The seller is already on the "notorious fake sellers" list on FAC
The Antoninus denarius is obviously fake, and a bad one...

Q

 

OMG! I was going to bid on a lot of Roman coins, too! I'm so glad I didn't now. Cucumbor, what it the link to that fake seller list so I can bookmark it?

 

I see very good reasons for this rule:

A person who wants a coin can contact other bidders and scare them off then win that coin.

A person with a grudge against a seller can run off his business by proclaiming all his coins fake to his buyers.

A person who THINKS he knows a coin is fake can then proclaim the coin is fake whether it is or not. Who are you? What do you know? They dont know you from Adam and they dont know if your judgment is sound or if you know fake from real. A lot of people think they know and they just dont...

Bidders can collude to keep prices down...I'll let you get this one cheap and not bid, the next one I get for cheap and you dont bid.


The list goes on. There have been many times where I would have liked to warn bidders about what I believed to be a fake but I understand why, in this venue, its probably best to not let people interfere with a sale.

I have reported sellers in the past to ebay and provided proof the coin a person is selling is fake and they have been removed...best to go about it that way and not allow every unknown ebayer with unknown knowledge level and unknown motives contact buyers willy nilly condemning peoples wares.

I dont know how many times I have heard someone say. 'thats a fake, there is no doubt!!' then when asked why they say it is fake you get some vague reasoning like 'it just obviously fake' or 'it doesnt look right' or 'the sellers posting is fishy'.

There was a Greek coin posted here a bit ago that people had a hard time with so the person went to forum to post it and see what people there thought. Most there seemed to think it was fake but few would condemn the coin because they werent sure. One guy out right says there is no doubt it is fake, one reasoning was because of scratches on the coin that he said were new...there were a few other similar reasons.

I asked the guy how, from a photo, he could tell the scratches were new...just as a learning experience, just to see if this guy could adequately explain how he knew, with 100% surety, the coin was fake...no answer...so often people are so quick to proclaim a coin fake, they will shout it from the roof top, but when asked to explain how he knows, the answers aren't there or are vague....so they are more than able to proclaim a coin fake without any reservation...but oddly shy away when asked WHY they think its fake or to explain how they know scratches on a coin are new or old or how that factors into it being fake or real...

Unlike some, I have very little faith in peoples ability to spot fakes and I have even less faith that people who proclaim they can tell a coin has been cleaned can...because 9 or of 10 times, they cant.

 

What ya talk'n 'bout, Bob?

It's easy to contact the buyers. But you dew have to wait till they leave feedback.

Ribbit :whistle:

 

Hello danfierce70,

The link you're looking for is here

Q

 

I was pretty much in agreement with this post until we got to the above but since I'm one of those people on Forvm, I have a few points to make.

1. Somewhere someone got the idea that 'experts' (real or self proclaimed) should be able to spot a fake from photos posted. It does not work that way. If I had the coin (any coin) in hand, I'd feel 95% certain that I could say it was genuine unless it showed one of a few very specific signs that guaranteed that it was a fake. The best 'experts' miss some of them. I'm not the best, I don't even collect coins of Alexander beyond the half dozen or so I have in my general collection and I don't own the $300 worth of references needed to even catalog the thing let alone expertise it.

2. Dealers and advanced collectors develop and rely on a couple defense mechanisms. One is a three level scale of telling fakes from real coins. They buy coins that are almost certainly genuine; they decline coins that are certainly fake (possibly even telling the seller that the coin is fake) or they avoid without comment coins about which they have a less than warm and fuzzy feeling. Even professional experts like David Sear will occasionally decline opinion on a coin (very rarely) but most just tell the seller that it is not what we are seeking at the moment. The coin that started this question falls into this category. I believe, as I stated high up in the posting, that the coin is an unofficial but ancient copy. My degree of certainty that this is correct is less than would allow me to buy the coin for what it should bring if I wanted such a coin (I don't) or as a resale item that I could support with my 'good' name if I were a dealer (I couldn't and I'm not). The correct answer for this coin is to send it off to David Sear and pay him about what the coin is worth for an opinion that would still leave some little doubt one way or the other OR to just keep the coin with the footnotes that the coin has unresolved issues when it comes to fitting into the history of coinage. If we knew the history of the coin since it was unearthed (or made) these questions would clear up nicely.

3. Get over the business about cleaned coins being defective. That is a current opinion suitable for modern coins that simply does not work with ancients. The question is how well or poorly the coin was treated between the time it was rediscovered (a few ancients have been in collections continuously for over 500 years but more are more recently unearthed). If you are willing to accept a coin as uncleaned, chances are very good it was cleaned well or cleaned moderately well a long time ago. Certainly it is appropriate to pay extra for well 'conserved' coins than for those that have been butchered but the chance of your ever seeing a decent looking ancient coin that was not at least washed off is very slim.

4. Being dirty is no sign of being genuine. Some 'uncleaned' coin lots have dirt (and some fakes) added. Fake coins are 'processed' to make them look more believable. Many so called experts condemn a coin as fake because its surface looks like it was retoned, repatinated, or freshly scratched. There is nothing that will prevent someone from taking a genuine coin, butchering it to bright metal, passing it through the intestines of a goat or baking it in a sulfurous soup just like they would do to a fake. I once knew a dealer that was carrying a $1000 coin of Uranius Antoninus in with his pocket change to make it look more natural. If a gentlemen carries a Roman sestertius in his pocket as a fingerable toy (a 'pocket piece') it can get very slick and unnatural. The same goes for gold pieces removed from Victorian jewelry. How one tells a gold aureus treated in this way from a high quality fake similarly processed is beyond me (so I don't buy them).

Don't be so hard on the people on Forvm. Some were trying to help and, as you noted, some of us should reread the Forvm instructions where it suggests not offering an opinion if you don't know anything about the question.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=18946.0

 

Thank you for the link!

 

You're very welcome

Q

 

I think you misunderstand. I agree completely that unless its just a glaring fake or well known with other examples known to be referenced...I agree...it is difficult to make a determination when it comes to fake or real. This was my exact point about people being able to contact people and warn them. Presumably, unless the coin fits into the 'well known fake' category, this very fact is a reason NOT to allow people to announce to all bidders a coin is fake. That's all we had with the coin in question was a picture of a coin that many people thought 'didn't look right' (including myself)...lots of ancients 'don't look right' but are in fact right for the that variety. I have seen people go on and on about how a coin is completely wrong, condemning the coin...then someone who knows more about that coin type comes in and says...that's just a different variety...it doesn't look fake to me...the guy condemning the coin just didn't know enough about varieties to speak authoritatively about it but did anyway.
The cleaning was a bit of a side rant as I also collect more modern coins...people will proclaim coins 'cleaned'...I wont get into the issue deeply, we all have seen it...people saying that if a coin has been rubbed with soft cotton (as you may know sof cotton can RUIN a coin ), I can see it on a photo...the cleaned business IMO defies logic and people who make claims that they can detect coins that have been cleaned or that no coin even CAN be improved with cleaning say such things in defiance of actual fact...I have never had to get over the business of cleaning being defective...I assure you.

As for Forum, I have a few problems with that forum but they mainly stem from what I see as conflict of interests when it comes to open (realistic) discussion about fakes and Joes business. As he has said many times, that is his coin shop and anything that might effect peoples willingness to buy coins from him will not be allowed...from something as minor as recommending a place to buy something elsewhere at a better price than what he might be selling it at to daring to paint what I feel to be a more realistic picture of the state of fakes in ancients. I was fanged one time for daring to correct one of his experts when he said something like 'to make a convincing fake it costs a lot of money and requires big expensive machines' or some such nonsense...trying to reassure buyers that its HARD and very EXPENSIVE to make a good fake. They are doing it in the Balkans with a very minimal amount of equipment is the reality...I was told such talk is not allowed. I still think its a good place to go for an opinion from people who are quite knowledgeable...I am the person who recommended he go there and post the coin to get some feedback. If I had such a low opinion of the people there, I would not have done so...I know that all coins status cannot be resolved all the time but since there ARE a lot of people there who see a LOT of coins on a daily basis...they might have seen this coin (or one like it) before.

As for the people at forum, I think because many of them are dealers, they are not quick to proclaim something fake...over cautious even? Others, like the gentleman who proclaimed it fake because of scratches he was sure, from just the photo, were new scratches (again, even if they ARE new scratches, how does that make it fake beyond doubt) or some at the CFDL who I think sometimes are a little trigger happy when it comes to proclaiming something fake....In the end, there is still a lot of people who know quite a bit and a good place to check just in case they can help you...

But as for people being able to tell if a coin is fake or not...I agree that from a photo it can be difficult or impossible to do this and my main point is that I just dont trust a persons ability to be accurate enough to spot fakes beyond a shadow of a doubt (if there is not known examples they can refer to) consistently enough to think its okay for them to 'warn' other buyers to stay away by contacting them. Who are they and what do they know? If anyone is allowed to do this, you will have problems.

And the cleaning issue, and the hyper anal way people condemn a coin that they THINK might have been (shock!!) cleaned and the the way people are so paranoid about fakes they see them around every corner...and the way many are just so vague in their condemnation like 'it doesn't look right to me' type of thing...thats fine and good when you are making your on decisions to buy or not...but you shouldn't be allowed to pass that on to all bidders just because YOU don't like it. Without doubt there are just glaring fakes and those I will even report here and there...but as for the less obvious and those you just have a feeling about...that's another story.

 

I have slight problems understanding how rubbing with a soft cloth is all that different from placing the coin in a soft cotton pocket, grabbing it not by the edges and handing it to some person at the convenience store in trade for something else (probably sales tax since that is the main reason given today for having coins at all). Sure we need to handle MS-xx and Proofs with some respect but coins are not ruined by being used. They just become circulated coins.

If by ruined, you mean lowered in cash value, perhaps we should ask the government to set up a grading station at the mints where trained inspectors examine every coin for perfection and ship them directly to PCGS for sale in the mint gift shop. Coins grading below MS60 could be released for circulation or remelted as demand dictates.

 

Well, when I heard this, it didn't sound right at all but I put an uncirculated coin with a surface like a mirror to the test all the same. I rubbed it with a soft cloth and found that it left no evidence (at least to my naked eye and my loop) of any markings. Like you say, I use black felt to place my coins on to be photographed and when I do so, the coins will rub the felt a bit...and still my coins seem unaffected. So the soft cloth harming a coin seems unfounded unless that cloth has debris in it. I realized that some times people just say things because they have been told it and have never bother to test it. I realized this when I heard a person say 'a coin has never been improved by cleaning'...this one flies in the face of so much contrary evidence it was quite amazed a person would say such a thing....but its a good excuse to drive people to NOT try to improve a coin and simply go buy another... I find most people saying this have no real advice to offer as they have taken such advice themselves....so they just say what they have always heard and done. I find there is a real lack of people in the know when it comes to cleaning coins and those who are wont tell because they want you to pay them. I have quite a few coins (ancients, notgeld and some more modern bronze medals) that have been GREATLY improved with a bit of careful TLC...but I digress.

 

There is a known fake ancient coin dealer on ebay-from the notorious fakes list who is selling a

Sell now
VACHERON CONSTANTIN Stainless Steel Royal Eagle Chronograph 49145 and the bidding is up to $2235.00. he does take returns but aren't there loads of replicas of these out there?

 

I've seen a couple of mentions about a list of notorious fake dealers - can someone please post a link or let me know how to find it?

 

The link was given in post #9 of this thread. I tried the link and it works despite the fact that this thread was from 2009. My #2 biggest dispute with Coin Talk is there is no provision for discouraging people in 2017 from reviving a post from 2009 and wasting the time of all who read it. In this case, the first post gives a link that now shows every coin of Antoninus Pius on eBay. Some of them are probably fake (some may have been made after this thread began) but not all fakes and they are not all from the same seller as claimed by the original poster only 8 years ago. Some days I just feel like giving up. Is there no statute of limitations to Internet posts?

 

It's on FORVM - the Notorious Fake Sellers List. Be sure to visit the rest of FORVM if you are collector of ancient coins.

 

When looking for lists of eBay fakesellers, try googling
fakesellers eBay