Fake 1817?

I received this today and upon opening definitely felt a difference in the coin and when I got home compared it to my other 1817. I did notice letters were off compared to where they were on my first 1817 ever so slightly and it weighs a whopping 11 grams flat. I’m still working on the older cents as I’m more in tune with silver coins but I thought id ask you guys what you though? The first set will be the coin I think to be fake and the second will be what I’m comparing with.

thank you!

 

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Those denticles look a little odd

 

Also the star placement over here head especially is far off..

 

The date looks off as well.

 

It’s a nice looking “coin” nevertheless. Great placeholder if one paid next to nothing for it

 

The 8 in the OP looks very sloppy.

 

I am not familiar with these at all but is there more than one date position for that year?

 

Take a guess. How many different die combinations are known for 1817 Large cents? This one looks like N-6.

11 grams flat! Have you looked up the weight standard for these coins? Then did you add the + tolerance?

 

I am unsure at this point due to knowing minimal at this time of the older large cents! But if this was a N-6 how could it weigh that much over? I’m being honest and this would be a great learning opportunity

 

What are you basing your opinion on? Far off compared to what?

In what way? What does "off" mean? Compared to what?

What 1817 are you using to judge the "8" looks sloppy?


PS I don't know anything about authenticating Large cents but the mouth sure looks funny to me.

 

I posted two 1817s the first one is the one I believe to be fake and the second one that is authentic I’m my collection is what I am comparing off of. Unless this is a different variety but as I stated I am newer to the old large cents so am very unaware the reason for making the post. Compared to the other in my collection all the things I stated look to be in different areas as well as the weight it weighs 11 grams which is over the weight these should be at. Unless other varieties change this aspect?

 

You have two nice looking coins. Most counterfeits in this series have sharp, square edges just like a nickel. The Mint specification for your coin is 10.886 grams (Redbook 10.89). The Mint tolerance for these coins is not given in the 6/1/76 Mint Revised data and after a quick search I don't find one listed. Nevertheless, IMHO, your coin is within tolerance - whatever that +/- happens to be for that period of time. Now you have my interest! I'll let you know if I find anything.

 

I guess 11 is fairly close isn’t it to that? I’ve had plenty of other coins I knew were authentic that were more off then that but usually less then more! I forgot one thing that I’ll check when I get home and take out the old earth magnets. Do you honestly think it does have a chance of authenticity? Possibly the N-6 variety you said. I will have to take a look tonight I only had a few moments with her but enough time for it to get my attention.

 

No magnetic properties measure the same as the other one just much heavier

 

I am saying this and being entirely transparent... I am not a large cent guy..... I was immediately struck by how radically different the tip of her bust is in relation to the date. On your suspect coin, the tip of the bust is entirely forward of the first digit of the date. On your known good piece, the tip of the bust falls over the second digit. Would a die variety account for that much difference in date/bust relationship?

 

Yes I noticed that as well but as @Insider stated this looks to be the n-6 variety and I haven’t had much time to look close enough but I did see a few pictures and I do believe that it is the n-6 as it does seem to match very close it’s the close date variety.

 

Yes. If you don't have a Large cent reference try this:

Go to Google and type in 1817 large cent N-1, then N-2, all the way up. You'll probably stop after the first six or so as you see all the variations. Don't get confused with the designs of the 13 or 15 star coins. Stick with one or the other.

 

That’s good information thank you!

 

Both coins are real. The dies were hand made back then with the central device being "hubbed" in using a screw press and then all the additional details (stars, date, letters etc.) being punched in individually by hand. This makes every die different, with often a lot of differences between dies. There are 17 different die marriages in 1817. The first coin is a N-6, the second is a N-14.

As to the weight, the spec weight was 10.88 grams and then as now coins do not always weigh the exact spec weight. There would be a tolerance allowance. Now there is no specified tolerance for the cents of this era, but I would make the assumption (I know that is a risk) that it would be similar to the official tolerance when they did start specifying it in 1837. That tolerance was +/- .454 grams. If so your 11 gram cent is WELL within the range that would be considered acceptable.

 

Thank you for the detailed reply! I didn’t know they were still doing most things by hand that late in the game! That’s fun to know