I have been impressed with some of their coins at their website tonite. Your take on their pricing? The 1910-S $5 Indian in PCGS 64 CAC $45,000 is nice or how about the 1915 $5 Indian in PCGS 65 CAC for $17,500? A couple of us are having a debate about these so your thoughts appreciated. I think they graded the 1910-S $5 MS 64 bc of the two bullet hole like contact marks to the right of the Eagles Head on the reverse (he missed!). What do you think about pricing of these based on CW Values or the CDN?
You're probably not going to find much from Legend that follows book values. What you will find are exceptional coins, but they will be coins that are exceptionally priced as well. For example, that 1910-S Indian. It sold at the FUN show for $37,375 - http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1151&Lot_No=5142 . Care to guess who bought it ? You can find the '15 Indians here - http://coins.ha.com/common/search_r... MS65&Nty=1&N=51+790+231+398&chkNotSold=0&Ns=
Legend has very nice coins, in my experience. Their prices follow their quality. If you try and buy exceptional coins at CDN prices, you will fail.
If I were to venture a guess on who bought the 10S for 37K I would guess Legend. Leadfoot I would have to agree: CDN Bid for the 1910-S in 64 is $17,500 and 36,000 in 65; CW Trends for 65 is $45,000 on the 1910-S which is what they are asking for their 64. Interesting. CW lists the 1915 in MS 65 at $16,000 (CDN is $12,000). Well so much for the idea CW Trends is inflated! I guess the world or rarities is an arena of its own and the CDN can be more of a wish list there. Beautiful coins.
FWIW... PCGS price guide for 10-S in 65 is $28k -- $48k for that coin seems steep (just shy of 66 money!), but it's a tough, tough coin. " " " " 1915 in 65 is $16k -- $17.5k is within reason with a CAC sticker, IMO. Also IMO, the PCGS price guide is the best guide for retail coins like this.
PCGS price guide isn't always right... especially on thinly traded coins. Legend is well known for carrying VERY high quality stuff, and very high end coins carry very high end prices. They're one of the top dealers out there for high end gold coins, and your chances of buying a doctored gold coin from them (PCGS and NGC holders are little guarantee against that) are very slim.
I think the MS 64 $5 10S is priced really high (PCGS shows it at 28k in 64 and 55k in 65) and they are asking what appears to be practically 65 money! Well more power to them if they can get that.
The point you seem to be missing is this - not all examples graded MS64 are worth the same amount. Legend is selling a coin graded 64 that they think is so nice that it is worth close to 65 money. That's really all there is to it. The very same thing happens every day with all coins. Check auction prices for any coin in a given grade. You'll see in every case examples that sell for twice as much as another coin of the exact same grade, and both coins will have been graded by the same company. There's is absolutely nothing unusal about this. It has always been that way and always will be that way. The thing about Legend is this - they try to only buy and sell the best of the best. And that's why their prices are always so high. And when you, as a collector, want to buy the best of the best, then you go to dealers like Legend because they are the ones who are going to have those coins. And only those coins. They don't sell anything else as a general rule because they won't buy anything else.
I don't think he's missing that point, he seems (to me at least) to be debating the price point given the relative value of the coin in that grade and the next grade. Even for Legend, and assuming the coin's high end for the grade, pricing a 64 at 65 money seems a bit of a stretch.
Mike that's what I was saying though. It is not uncommon to pay 65 money for 64 coins, when the 64 coins are nice enough.
Yes I agree they have quality material and on the rare stuff markups above Bid may be high. They operate in an esoteric high end area that takes a lot of pocket and pricing can be pressed up into the stratosphere from auction frenzy. However, lets look what the CDN says on the 1910-S: CDN Bid for a 1910-S MS 64 $5 Indian is $17,500. MS 65 Bid is $36,000. Is the CDN flawed on this one or is the coin grossly overpriced? Someone is going to pay more than double of bid because its Legends Coin? That buyer will be the end user for sure but if its some guy so loaded he just needs that for his set, perhaps so. An asking price above MS 65 Bid on an MS 64 coin is a red flag IMO. On average, most of the industry prices their material around 35-40% above bid (based on extensive analysis I have performed). During the summer months certified coins I tracked on Ebay were only bringing 92% of CDN Bid on average. It was a great time to buy. It will be interesting to see if their HailMary on the 1910-S MS 64 Five Indian finds an open receiver.
How many of those coins were 1910-S G$5 in MS 64. The point being "average" coins (like those typically found on eBay) go for "average" prices -- and I don't think anyone who knows coins and knows Legend would disagree that their inventory is well above average. But 65 prices for a 64 coin -- like you, that sends up a potential red flag.
If it's that good of a coin, why isn't it in a + or 65 holder? Call me cheap, but paying 80%+ of the next grade up is uncommon for me (except when I buy raw large cents, lol), but you make a good point. The key issue here, I think, is just HOW good of a 64 is this -- and frankly, I don't have a clue how to micro-grade this series.
Doug summed it up quite well. Also, you have to bear some things in mind with pricier gold coins. First, Legend tends to carry coins that are generally at the very top of their assigned grades. I know a dealer who had about 50 Saints graded, a small hoard of one slightly better date. If memory serves they were 23s, a coin that does take a jump out of the generic pool in 65 and if I recall he made about 10 or 12 65s from the hoard. I remember being told that he showed the 65s to Legend and only one of them worked for Legend. I also remember that Legend paid way over sheet for the one coin, it just missed 66 and was gorgeous. Legend tends to sell PQ coins, and Legend charges a lot for coins because they pay a lot for their coins, if memory serves the coin got a CAC green sticker, and I think at the time bid was $6,000, Legend paid $7500 for it and put it on their website for $8300-8500 or thereabouts. Meanwhile you could buy an average one for $6500-7k. But that's a coin that probably bids around $1800 in 64, $6,000 in 65 and $30,000 in 66. Legend also only retails CACd coins, and CAC really is tough on gold coins, namely because so many of them have been doctored. PCGS is finally starting to get an edge on the doctors but for years a handful of people have been making a very good living by doctoring valuable gold coins and getting them in holders. I can assure you that realizing a Saint that you own has been puttied and is starting to turn isn't a very good feeling, you won't have that worry buying from Legend.
Rld nailed it. CAC is very tough on gold -- John Albanese has specifically mentioned this in interviews. Check the disparity in CAC pops compared to PCGS and NGC. I have had nothing but positive transactions with Legend -- they are a dealer with fine inventory who prices their stuff accordingly. George will work with you a bit on price, depending on the coin.
