Forgive my slipping in medieval coins but I am struggling with ID of a couple English pennies. I am a little shocked at the format and things made important by catalogs. It seems harder to find legend listings but they put a lot of emphasis on tiny differences i the crown or a letter shape. I would appreciate confirmation or being walked through my errors on the two Pennies below. Henry III long cross Walter on Canterbury type Vg S.1373 The X is weak and not clear to me but significant to the ID? The one below was sold to me as Edward I an admittedly is not much of a coin in many respects but I am hazarding a guess. There is a space where the diagnostic A in EDWAR should be. This one seems to depend a lot on things not clear on this specimen. Edward II Bury St. Edmunds type 14 S.1465 I have England's Striking History and a 1999 edition of Spink Coins of England. (Is there any reason to get a new one? I do not care about prices or new coins.) Is there another book/site I should know? Thanks.
Doug, I'm a newbie whose opinion is fully worthless when it comes to this are but this is my "go to" resource for these.
I should add that one thing that North doesn't do is actually build out a catalog of all the moneyers for each issue. He just lists the known moneyers per ruler and leaves it at that. Probably a huge project (just the sort I like!) Rasiel
In terms of spink, the catalog numbers have changed. It might be worth getting a new one since yours is 20 years out of date. They are not worth getting every year, but I aim for every 5 years (and I suspect I get more mileage from them than you would). The Edwards I have always found to be tricky, and North would probably be a better help. There is a Galata guide for the Edwardian pennies that I suspect really delves in to the differences, but I haven’t looked at it. There is a pretty good website though for general attribution which can be cross referenced with Spink/Standard Catalogue by the listed type: http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/pages/edwardian-Pennies/Edwardian Pennies P17.htm#Identification There is also a good website for Attributing Henry III pennies: http://www.henry3.com/ In terms of a catalogue of moneyer per issue, I’m not aware of any general book of English coins that does that, and I think that is one of the great gaps that could be filled...
I terms of a catalogue of monster per issue, I’m not aware of any general book of English coins that does that, and I think that is one of the great gaps that could be filled... I'd tackle this as a fun project if I had another life to live! All you need is a suitably large database and lots - no make that oodles - of patience and a bit of autism to pull it off :- ) Rasiel
Not sure I understand why autism would matter, but I agree with your other points. There is enough info out there that you could find the moneyers, but they are not easily accessible in a single source (at least not to my knowledge)
Heh, from what I've heard there's an unusually large representation of autistic people who are good at cataloguing and making lists that "normal" people would find very tedious. It's like an OCD thing.
He is referencing ASD or Autism Spectrum Disorder. In particular, he is calling attention to Asperger's syndrome which is considered too be on the high functioning end of ASD. Some with Asperger's can be very obsessive about specialized or specific tasks. "Compared with those affected by other forms of ASD, however, those with Asperger syndrome do not have significant delays or difficulties in language or cognitive development. Some even demonstrate precocious vocabulary – often in a highly specialized field of interest." https://www.autismspeaks.ca/about-autism/what-is-autism/asperger-syndrome/
Just checked my 2015 Spink and the number of the Henry III has not changed. I recall seeing number changes at some point between my 2003 and 2015 books. Maybe it was the Anglo-Saxon Coins.
Me too. A while ago I bought an Edward I penny because I have always wanted a “Longshanks” coin but I put it aside to await some research and self attribution. That time has come. I know very little about hammered English pennies and so it is going to be a new learning experience for me. Here is the coin: Thank you for those great references @FitzNigel - they are much appreciated. As you can see I bought the Galata guide and am currently devouring it.
I'm confused. Spink's 1999 Coins of England is as general as they come and listed on page 151 that my Walter on Canterbury spans type Vc-h. The V seems obvious but the listing prevented me from looking outside that given range. I squinted at the tiny photos and guessed Vg which was the point of this post.
In Wren's "The voided long cross coinage" he gives Walter as the moneyer at the Canterbury mint only for classes Vc-h. After looking closely at Wren's line drawings of the different classes I too think you have a class Vg.
Oh my goodness this is painful! Trying to precisely attribute my coin has brought me down a step or two. In the words of Augustus McCrae “it has taken the starch out of me” - all those tiny symbols and ornament variations and the goofy letterforms! I should have started this back when I was 80! Actually I am enjoying this - but it will be nice to get back to the simplicity of attributing Roman Imperial coins.
I agree. Before I can see value in such flyspecking, I need to gain an understanding of how the distinctions were assigned significance to something (dating, die cutter?). Are we to believe that each moneyer cut his own dies in a coded sequence based on the fleur shape? Were the names on the coins the parties responsible for the weight and all dies were cut together? Are there die links showing two moneyer reverses sharing an obverse? There is too much I don't know to collect these at the subtype level. The references I have seen state 'that' but expect me to take the 'how' and 'why' on faith. Thanks for the advice. Perhaps 20 would not be too early?
I have been hacking away at attributing my Edward I coin using my (used - no pages missing) copy of the Galata Guide and the links that @FitzNigel provided and it has made for an interesting couple of days. So far here is what I have determined: The obverse legend reads: EDW R ANGL DNS HYB (Edward King of England Lord of Ireland) The obverse depicts a stylized portrait of Edward wearing a crown - full facing The reverse legend reads: CIVI TAS LON DON (Minted in London) The reverse depicts a “long cross” with three pellets in the intersections I haven’t begun to try to identify and interpret the crown ornaments, fleurs, bands etc. or the drapery, letterforms, neck marks, punctuation marks, apostrophe shapes, wedges ……… ad infinitum. I think (or hope) what I have done so far is valid. If that is the case then my coin was minted and probably circulated circa. 1275? (I am enquiring of the CT community here). I am not trying to be overly fastidious - I just have that inherent pride (that all dedicated CT’ers have) in being able to correctly identify all of my coins properly and ascribe to them the correct historical association. I have a long way to go in achieving those goals with this coin. One consolation I have is that even the redoubtable Doug Smith appears to be having some difficulty precisely attributing these pennies.
I believe the current hypothesis is that the dies were made at a central location (likely London, but episcopal issues may be different), and then shipped to the various mints where reverse dies were used by a specific moneyer, but obverse dies could be shared (grab your reverse in the morning, and any available obverse from the box). The shape of the crowns attributing age may be accounted for by archaeological finds, but also extant records such as the Pipe Rolls (exchequer receipts) which sometimes name the moneyers in the county they live. I have a book that is a detailed study on this (not with me - at the Barbour shop at the moment), but I haven’t read through it yet. I will say that the Edwardian pennies are probably the most difficult series in Medieval English coins because of the minute differences. I have yet to really delve into them, and even experts can make mistakes (I bought an Edward II for a very well known and respected numismatist, and I’m fairly certain it is an Edward I - the price was good regardless so I won’t complain). When I bought my Edward I penny years ago, I chose it because it was the one design where there isn’t ambiguity, due to the pellet which begins the inscription (afraid I can’t agate the image since I’m doing this on my phone...). If you guys need more help in the next day or so I can try to chime in with more - I’m trying to wrap up a coin project at the moment, and deal with the start of a new school year...
I couldn't agree more about Edwardian pennies. Even the shortcross series of Henry II - Henry III has more discernable features than the long cross coinage of Edward I - III. While there are some very easily distinguishable mints and marks, many of the classes are identical save for the most minuscule details. I have given up trying to be a completist and focus on Edwardian pennies I find attractive. All that said, @dougsmit I think your long cross penny is a class 10 or 11. The A after EDW is present, just hard to make out. The bottom of the letter is just barely visible. That said, the level of detail required to discern which class/sub-class it belongs to doesn't appear to be there. I would be content in saying that it is a late Edward I to early Edward II penny that was minted in the early 1300s. The most authoritative source for the deliniation of the different classes of Edwardian pennies was written in 1909 by the Fox brothers. It is titled "Numismatic History of the Reigns of Edward I, II and III." A PDF can be found online by doing a Google search. While it has been revised over the years, it still is the source for the classification system of these pennies.
