Early Large Cent Identification Help

Hey guys,

First time on the forums because I'm not really a collector -- I was trolling estate and garage sales for gold and junk silver. Came across a lot labeled "large cents x3". Two were identifiable by the obverses (thats all the auctioneer posted, in very low resolution, picture attached).



I noticed the left most coin's outline more closely resembled the 1793 cent, so I threw in a bid and got the lot for $4.50 a coin.

So they arrived the other day and the two other coins were 1822 and 1825 large cents in pretty poor shape, pretty much what I expected.

The left-most coin is extremely corroded, but text is visible on the reverse. So I took some higher resolution pictures with my camera phone and started overlaying large cent pics.

Unbelievably, the closest match is the G*WPt white metal cent. And not only does it match features, but it matches in several locations (rotations and offset). I think this may have been a test planchet for the white metal coin.

The photo from the auction, contrast & brightness adjusted photos of the obverse and reverse of the coin, and some pics comparing with a single overlay are available from me via public Google drive folder -- some of them, especially the following PXDs are fairly large.

The .PXD files are layered images openable by Pixlr (free photo editing website). You can turn on and off layers and use an opacity slider to fade them in and out in real time.

Not that it's comparable because the coin is so corroded, but my kitchen scale weighed it in as ~10g (doesn't do fractions of grams) and its approx 28-29mm in diameter (measured with a ruler b/c I don't have calipers). I also can't find info on the size and weight of the white metal cent online either. My coin appears to contain copper, hence the green corrosion. I believe it to be struck multiple times, and if you open the layered PXD files and look at each layer independently, you'll see why...

If viewing the pictures, pay attention to where die strikes would most densely pack in metal -- edge of the letters, etc.

Let me know what you guys think, or if I'm just crazy. I sent it off to PCGS for restoration and identification/grading today after a guy at the local coin shop wouldn't even hear me out because the coin is too rare for this to possibly be one.

Thanks!



Edit: definitely use the google drive link if you want full resolution, not scaled down versions like the attached.

 

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The white metal G.W.P cent is 31.8 mm in diameter and weighs 6.78 grams. The copper birch cent (same dies modified) in copper is also 31.8 mm but weighs 14.65 grams.

I haven't seen your overlays but it would say it definitely is not a Birch cent. Diameter too small, to light for a copper one, and the angular separation between the U and A3 is too small. (When I rotate an image of the Birch cent around so the UNT matches location with yours, A3 is in the area around where the R is on your coin.)

I haven't been able to make out anything on the obv (the fact the images are rotated better than 90 degrees counterclockwise doesn't help) but I suspect either a Classic head, or another Matron head.

 

Thanks, Conder101.

Here's my comparison of the reverse. The odd angle between the A3 and U that are visible is what I noticed first and made it hard to identify -- it really doesn't seem to match any specific model. Upon further investigation, it looks like it was (at minimum) double struck with rotation, producing that strange offset.

Here's the one comparison I did on the reverse, at a first matching angle, overlay at 40% opacity. I'll post another with the rotated position overlayed:



I'll also try to post the comparison of the obverse. I don't believe it is a matron or liberty because it appears to be a right-facing bust -- the verdigris appears to be hair, and the uncorroded spots align with where a right-facing nose would appear. I'll post additional pictures in a few minutes. Just need to save them in a more accessible format than PXD

 

Here's a rotation counter clockwise a few degrees to line up the strong U. Note how the periods match up exactly -- not a feature present in any of the other coins mentioned. Opacity is at 0%, 20%, and 40% in the respective pictures.



Also, regarding the size, the verdigris on the edges appears to be approx a .5mm thick, presuming the rest of the coin has worn away -- dimensionally that's consistent with the approximate size of other coins referenced, considering the lack of quality control then.

Or we consider the next possibility: The silver-center cent sans silver center reference here since my coin does appear to be an entirely-copper planchet.

Copper's density is 8.94g/milliliter (cubic CM). If the planchet is 1.4mm (reference from the link below) thick and a diameter of 29.3mm, full size, that pegs the weight of such a coin at approximately 9.44g. I don't have an accurate measure of the weight because my kitchen scale doesn't do fractional grams -- it hovered between 9 and 10g before settling at 10, again, not far from the realm of possibility given that the scale is a crappy Martha Stewart model.

I'm going to go put together a comparison of the obverse at two different rotations as well for you guys and I'll post that in a few minutes.

Honestly, the most compelling is looking at the PXDs and slighting the opacity in and out on various layers, each containing a different rotation and offset that matches features on the face of the coin. The size and weight don't seem to preclude the conclusion as well, per above.

 

Also, here's another of the reverse with the clearly identifiable center sprig of the wreath aligned -- this coin has clearly been struck multiple times as really messed up offsets and rotations.

 

First one of the of obverse. Note especially the neck crease, base of bust, numbers, R and Y of LIBERTY, and the &. Again, with a dynamic fading, all of this is far more apparent. I encourage anyone looking at these to try the .pxds on Pixlr

I'll assemble another with the obverse in the orientations closer to the way the original photo is oriented as well...

Edit: reattached my comparison so its in higher resolution -- should have done a thumbnail...

 

Here's the obverse oriented vertically. Note how the hair curly, nose, cheek dimple, eye, components of the date line up.


Edit: attached another copy at 30% and 60% opacity so smaller features are easier to see.

 

Alright, last one I'm posting (it's taxing to put those together). Here's another rotated off vertical CCW. Note the eyelid, lips, numbers, letter strong features, and especially the center of the hair curl near the bust.

 

Ok, but seriously, this is the last one...note again the hair curls, the eye, chin, and neck detail. Even some of the imperfections in the flat surface of the coin line up (to the right of the nose)

 

Another good comparison -- note how the characters that overflow the planchet match dimples on the edge of the planchet -- S, U, even the dimple between T and R, the numbers from the date.

 

Try taking a nice smooth new piece of aluminum foil and make a rubbing of the coin. I have done this with lots of corroded metal detected copper coins and it is surprising how much detail you can see.

 

I already sent it off to PCGS for some insight / restoration if they can do anything. My guess is no on both the restoration and identification fronts, but that's something I'll try once it's returned.

I included a usb drive with some of the above as well. No clue if they'll look at it.

 

Yeah, I think you are right, I expect you will just jet it back unidentified, that one is really rough. I just can't make anything out on the obverse. A large cent of some sort, but I wouldn't dare say what type.

 

Looking at the reverse, the sprigs inside the wreath being present would indicate it is the G*WPt cent...no other large cent of which I am aware or have looked at carries those markings...no other birch cent, and not the '93, '94, '95, or '96.

 

I think your imagination is having you see things which aren't there.

For example in the pictures immediately after my first comment where you are pointing out a lot of "features" Most of what you ppint out just appears to me to be lumps left from corrosion. But in the upper right quadrant what you call a period is just a corrosion lump between the legs of the R in AMERICA, the "back of the G" is the back of the C. Likewise the "top of G" it the top of the C. The "faint star" is the left upright of the A. And the "W left leg" is the right leg of the A. The RICA is clearly visible in the picture.

Then when you try to point out the sprig in the center, in order to get it to line up with what you think you are seeing your overlay had the Birch cent in a completely different position than in the previous overlay.

I am still not able to make out any features on the obverse.

 

Fair -- the obverse is certainly rougher.

Would corrosion eat away less dense features of the coin before more dense? I would think yes. Periods and the "berry" features of the wreath are going to be more dense by the nature of the die strike that creates them - hence why they are left behind -- it takes longer for verdigris to eat away at them.

As for the reverse -- what you call lumps of corrosion is obviously a sprig pattern. And yes, the lumps of corrosion beneath it seem to match the shape of the C and T in CENT, as the most identifiable.

I'm guessing I won't convince anyone who doesn't fade in and out the opacity slider on the PXDs. Has anyone done that?

 

So this is currently due back from PCGS later today -- and it looks like it may have been certified as a genuine 1792 1C J1 (not J6), though its unclear from the information on my account.

I assume if I have a cert # issued, then it was actually certified?

I'll post an update when FedEx arrives.

 

Every coin submitted gets a cert# it's needed for tracking purposes

 

Noted. Received this back after sending it in for restoration -- 11002.96

So how do "No Service" vs "No Decision" PCGS genuine codes compare? Is it "No service" because I sent it to restoration? Found it odd they specified a coin # and variety -- does that indicate it was identified?

Thoughts?

 

How did you identify it when you sent it in?