E-Bay Seller: Is he an optimist or unethical?

In my routine search for registry quality Jefferson Nickels on E-Bay, I ran across this auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1944-P-Silver-Jefferson-Wartime-5C-NGC-MS-67-0-finer_W0QQitemZ360114766403QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_US_Individual?hash=item53d8834243&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|293%3A1|294%3A50

The item for sale is a 1944-P Jefferson Nickel NGC MS67. This coin is a top pop coin with a total population of 758/0. The problem is that seller has the coin listed for $600 which is the PCGS price guide price. The Numismedia price guide for this coin is $90.

I have stated this many times before on this forum. PCGS and NGC use different standards when grading Jefferson Nickels and PCGS is almost an entire grade more conservative IMO. This explains the difference in price and populations between NGC and PCGS. For example, the 1944-P MS67 has the following populations and price guides:

• PCGS:-----14/0-----$600
• NGC:------744/0----$90

Obviously the PCGS coins are deserving of a higher price tag. This seller knows this information but lists the NGC coin at the PCGS price tag regardless. Does this seller really believe that the NGC coin he is selling is high end for the grade and would probably cross to MS67 at PCGS, or is he simply setting a trap for the uninformed who will think that there is no difference between the big two (PCGS & NGC) and will severly over pay for the coin.

My question to my fellow CT members is this: Is this seller being optimistic or unethical?

As a follow up question. Would you still feel the same way if the NGC Jefferson Nickel that he listed at PCGS prices had a CAC sticker?

 

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Could it be that he is testing the waters? I dont see how it can be classed as unethical as he is not claiming that the coin is something other than it actualy is (Is He?)
As for the price! well would you spend that amount on a coin unless you were at least familiar with what they cost? I know that I woudnt.

 

If he is testing the waters, he is doing it with every coin he is selling (including other Jeffersons) as they are all listed at the PCGS price guide.

Your second response is the crux of the issue. The seller is selling an NGC MS67 Jefferson at PCGS MS67 prices. He is not being deceptive with the listing at all. However, he knows that PCGS Jeffersons drive a higher price than NGC Jeffersons. IMO, there are only two scenarios in play. First, he thinks the coin is of MS67 quality regardless of the TPG. The second scenario is that he is playing on the inexperience of newbie collectors who may not have any idea that NGC and PCGS have vastly different grading standards for Jeffersons that result in vastly different prices. After all, most of the time for most series, the PCGS and Numismedia price guides are pretty close.

To answer your last question, no I certainly would not buy a coin without researching the value first. However, there are many new collectors that just don't have the knowledge to come to the right conclusion even after attempting to research the value.

 

Jefferson Nickels:
Not my thing, don't really like them, and I will take your word on PCGS being conservative

I will say this though, I don't know if I would pay the $600 for an NGC or PCGS graded MS67. If it were PCGS I might pay somewhere in the $450 range maybe up to $500. The NGC price is so much lower, due to it having a higher population, that being said the PCGS would go for more than $90, a lot more, that being there are only 14.
If it had a CAC sticker, people might pay in the $200-$300 range for it, and if it had a gold CAC sticker, I might pay near that much for it, and try to crossover at PCGS hope for a 68 and even that 67, because it would be worth more than what I paid.

With all this being said, I think this seller is just trying to reel the newbie into buying it, because you know that somebody will come along, look at the PCGS guide, and say what a great deal.
I think he is optimistic that a newbie will come along, but if that is not the case, then he is unethical, because $600 for a PCGS graded one might not happen, let alone a NGC one.
I guess my vote goes with unethical, because he might have just looked at PCGS and thinks that is the only price guide to go by.

 

I think the coin is almost certainly priced way too high, but I see nothing unethical in listing it at that price. I would, however, feel differently if the seller included the PCGS Price Guide price in the listing of an NGC/non-PCGS coin and didn't include any other pricing information.

 

Paul would you say that the seller was unethical if the price went in bidding up to $600.

Second there is both higher and lower buy-it-now prices on eBay so if a buyer buys the coin it his their fault.

This one is priced at $1,095 http://cgi.ebay.com/1944-P-JEFFERSO...QptZCoinsQ5fUSQ5fIndividualQQsalenotsupported

In a off topic I posted a 2007-P NGC dime at $100 Buy-It-Now and I got no takers afer 30 days so I listed the coin with no reserve and the coin went for over $200.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260424246055

 

He is a business man. He is trying to make a living. They do not always sell at the going market and, in fact, they do not always sell. If he thinks he can make more money this way, let him. It is not our job to patrol the entire net.

 

I see nothing wrong with listing a coin at a high price. Second I do not know what other MS-67s have sold for - could not find any on heritage. While PCGS maybe tougher it does not mean some of those NGC 67's would not crossover - second I would expect the Jeff experts or collectors would catch these. Of course I would not buy this one solely because the picture is not big enough to let me grade it to the best of my ability. Just my opinion and I am not an expert on Jeff nickels.

 

It's sort of funny - for a LONG time, the PCGS price guide language did NOT make reference to the prices being only for PCGS coins. I sent emails and suggested changes in its language to David Hall and another person at PCGS more than once, a few years ago. I have no idea if that's why they changed it, but either way, it was the right thing to do.

 

I say optimistic and reiterate what has been said here many times....buy the coin and not the holder.

 

I can't envision a scenario where an auction price would be unethical that didn't involve shill bidding. Having said that, I don't see this coin ever breaking $100 in an auction.

With regards to the coin priced @ $1,095, that auction listing is clearly unethical. The guy lists the price a 1944-P FS nickel in order to get some fool to spend over $1K on a less than $100 coin.

The one I brought up is much more borderline. I have not made up my mind whether it is unethical or not. A big part of me wants to just say CAVEAT EMPTOR.

 

On what basis would you even consider it unethical?

Here's another question for you (well, four of them, actually) - what if it were PCGS graded, but the asking price was $1200? $3000? $4000? Where do you draw the ethical vs. unethical line, based on the asking price being too high?

I'm big on ethics, but don't see how too high of an asking price (unaccompanied by misleading information) is unethical.

 

IMO what makes any sort of argument for him being unethical is that he is using PCGS Price Guide, and not looking at any other sources.
He would lower the price the he considered the fact that numismedia has it at $90, PCGS at $600, this is a big difference, if I were the seller of that coin, I'd just pick a price in the middle, and have a best offer option as well.
No experienced collector will buy that coin, but I don't know for sure if the seller is looking for an experienced collector.

 

Isn't Nusmismedia the official NGC price guide?
PCGS is the official PCGS price guide.

Thats my interpetation, and I think this is a stretch by the seller. At best.:rolling:

 

Mark,

If you can't see it after all of my previous explanations, then I doubt another explanation will help. Perhaps an analogy will help.

Before I give you an analogy, I first need you to admit that the coin is priced about 6X it's actual value.

If you can agree to that then we are in business. What if a relative of yours went to buy a new car and the guy at the Nissan dealer sold your relative an Altima for $100,000?

I don't understand why in the coin business it is considered acceptable to mark up a coin 500% of it's actual value and no ethics are questioned.

In answer to your question about the high priced PCGS coins, I still have a problem with them but I don't think those scenarios are as bad. The prices are guides. When a coin reaches a population of 14/0, it is very difficult to accurately determine the market value of a coin in a price guide. Secondly the seller would be praying on the monster created by registry competition which is most likely going to snare a seasoned collector and not a newbie who doesn't know any better.

 

I don't know if the coin is priced at 6X its actual "value" or not, but in order to further the discussion/debate, let's say I agree. I still have a problem with labeling a seller as unethical, based solely on his asking price relative to a published price guide. In part, because once you do that, you're walking a very slippery slope.

For example, about a year ago I bought a gorgeously toned common date PCGS MS65 Washington Quarter for roughly 10X the CDN bid price and marked it up about 15%. If you saw it, I doubt you'd think my asking price was unfair/unethical. But if you didn't see it and you didn't know me, what would you think?

Also, there have been numerous occasions where I have seen coins sell in public auctions for 3X, 5X, etc. my bids (which I thought represented fair market value). If those coins had been listed for sale on Ebay at the prices they realized, you might think the sellers were unethical.

Regarding the $100K Altima question you posed - If I saw one listed for $100,000, I would think the dealer was an idiot and a pig. But, unless he misled potential buyers in some way, I don't know that I'd automatically label him unethical. That said if he actually sold one for that amount, admittedly, I might feel very differently.

 

I reported that auction on the NGC board! :whistle:

That's wrong what he's doing and he's doing it while claiming to be a NGC Dealer! :goof:

Ribbit

 

My vote with only two responses goes to the unethical. To me he knows exactly what he is doing, and that is very misleading, or a misrepresentation. To me if it appears to have a hint of misrepresentation, then it is more times than not.

Even on HSN last night (I watched it last night on DVD, not sure when actually broadcast). they were selling ANACS PF-70 FDI Lincoln Cents for $139.95 in a display box. They did also state that coins in this grade by NGC or PGCS would be much more costlier than their price with ANACS, and up to the viewer to decide which was right for them.

 

MO, cashier‘s check or personal ck with the standard 10 day hold for
clearing. Sorry, 6.75% for NV residents. Insured shipping will be $9.95

Is this not a no no on e bay? I though you had to use Pay Pal and could not ask for checks or Money orders! I know if you have another payment service or run a credit card ..... again e bay not policing its site.......:whistle:

 

I couldn't vote, as I believe he is an unethical optimist, and you didn't provide an "all of the above" option.