Doubled dies a new education or approach. Let's try something new here. Instead of people asking is this coin or that coin a doubled die, why don't you ask us what or why you don't understand??? For instance: if you have a 1998 Lincoln with some doubling on it. Instead of saying "is this a doubled die or mechanical/machine type doubling"? Say "I see doubling on this coin, it looks like such and such but I cannot determine if this doubling is from a doubled die or from some other form of doubling? The point is for you to be able to explaine to us exactly what aspect of learning doubled dies is particularly confusing you. This subject is very important for me and has always concerned me why so much confusion exists regarding it. With this post I'm simply trying to find a new way to get at explaning the "meat" of this subject. It may not work or really be asking anything new or differerent but it's worth a shot. Thanks,
I think a large part of the reason that it is hard for some folks to understand is that all they have are pictures to look at. If they had someone, in person, who could point out the differences in flat shelf like doubling (mechanical doubling), and rounded (hub) doubling - then it would be a lot easier. You need the depth perception that you have when viewing the coin in person that you just can't get with a picture. Then, once they can see that, it can be explained what to look for in pictures so that it can be recognized there as well. Reading pictures is as much of a skill as anything else in numismatics. But it is a skill that comes easier for those who have the prior in hand experience. Of course I agree with you completely regarding your thoughts about the multitude of very minor errors that so much is made of these days. Of course that only happens because there is nothing else for those guys to look for anymore. And they are bored.
Good points, everyone that I have taught first hand has sooner or later "got it"! Good points, everyone that I have taught first hand has sooner or later "got it"! I do however (and I've mentioned this before) know of folks who cannot see it (doubled dies) no matter what. It has something to do with the abstract or way the brain interprets images. I showed a 1955 DDO-001 PCGS AU-58 to a friend of mine once, (not a coin collector) but a very well read person and he could not tell anything was wrong with it even after explining it to him and showing him where to look. This has happend several other times also with lessor doubled dies. I would not have ever believed it myself had these things not happened. It may be true that the untrained mind refuses to see until it is trained to see to one degree or another? That may be one of the eureka points we are searching for when trying to explain this to new persons.
Maybe a set of view-master discs on the subject would help? A 3-D educational tool so to speak. Just thinking outside the box.
hi, I'm new here, I hope I understood the question correctly. There are some differences between mechanicly caused doubling (called ''double strike'') and die-originated doubling that can be looked into without having the coin at hand... 1 - Is it mensioned in literature ? real doubled dies occur in (sometimes many) identical examples because there was 1 die and many coins. A mechanical doubling (double strike) will never reproduce precisely 2 - Double strike always results in wiping out details from the first strike, a doubled die is doubled in the deeper parts of the die, so it will result in double lines. It leaves the first strike intact. 3 - A mechanical doubling can be heavily off-center, a doubled die is mounted into a well-centered chuck, which allows only distortions in the angular direction. This is an example of doubled die: As you see, a complete second year is visible. When this doubling would have been caused by double strike, the first year would be partially wiped out. The second strike occurs at the same diameter (angular shift only) This is an example of double strike: As you see, the second stroke is heavily decentered and completely occluding the first stroke, especially in the flat parts ! With a doubled die that would not happen, because the concave parts of the die will be done twice with a small deviation (in position) Kind regards, LxGoodies
goodies: Welcome to the forum. And Ben: A good idea. I have stopped posting on many DDO questions simply because it gets repetitive. If the poster would say, hey, I think this is a Doubled die, or strike doubling because "..." then I'd be more likely to reply.
Welcome Goodies to the forum. bhp how you going to inform the newbie's of this? Also we need to let them know that when they post a question with a picture they need to mark the picture when asking 'what do you think this is?'.
Me too. If I posted every penny I came across that looked like some of the lettering had extra thickness, I'd be a billionaire as far as credits go.
No, no, no I'm trying to get at the heart of the problem. No, no, no I'm trying to get at the heart of the problem. I don't even need or want photos or coins. Newbies that are interested in learning should have no trouble finding this. What I want is for a person to vocalize what they are having a problem with specifict to understanding doubled dies. I want people to start to ask what we ask when we look at a coin. When I see a coin with some form of doubling on it I first rule out other forms of doubling from doubled dies. I suspect that is not what new persons are doing - they see something and they forgo that very process I just mentioned. I want new persons to think deeper about it. Instead of hey "I see doubling it might be a doubled die" I want them to learn to rule out other forms of doubling. That's the point of very specifict questions, to get them to think. I'm suspecting that most new folks see doubling and say it might be a doubled die, or it looks sort of like a doubled die I saw, I'll post a photo and see what others think if I found a treasure. In other words I think a major part of the confusion over learning how to tell true doubled dies may be just that people are skipping the very thing they will sooner of later have to understand because it's so easy with all this technowlegy at hand. To put it another way in this case it may be the easy portion of high tech is holding them back and frustrating the rest of us because we can't seem to get though - were skipping a fundamental and didn't even know it!
This is a GREAT post, doubled dies are so important to the hobby. Thanks for the post. There is a way of describing most all the different types of doubled dies, and that can be accompanied by pics of all the different types. We should each take one type, study up on it, submit a pic, and call it our guide. I'll take cartwheel doubling. Any volunteers for the second? Make it as a chart on the board for a resource guide.
