Do coin stores and dealers clean coins before selling

My local coin store has a couple hundred nice bright Morgans for sale. I'm not an expert on how dealers and coin stores acquire coins. I know one source for coin dealers is walk ins looking to sell their coins. Local coin store buys Morgans, for example, from a walk in for wholesale price of 18 bucks. If they then clean the coin removing tarnish or unattractive toning and any dirt thus making the coin bright white creating an attractive coin with luster. All the Morgans my LCS has are graded by either NGC or PCGS. Since the vast majority of coins walk ins sell to the LCS are not graded I'm assuming my LCS cleans the coins and sends them to a TPG to be graded with the intention/goal to get the highest grade possible in order to sell the coin retail for as much money as possible.

Am correct in assuming the LCS cleans their Morgans?

If they do clean them before submitting them to a TPG they must clean the coins in a matter that the TPG can't tell if the coin was cleaned or not. How do they clean the coins?

NGC and PCGS both offer conservation/restoration services for a fee. Correct me if I'm wrong but basically they are cleaning the coin and charging a fee to do so. How do they clean the coins? Do they dip the coins?

It is preached extensively to collectors to never clean a coin but NGC and PCGS both offer the service above which is cleaning the coins along with my assumption that LCSs also clean coins they buy before selling them at retail. Why the contradiction? Why is it OK for these parties to clean a coin but it's not OK for a collector to do so?

Thanks in advance for any input or opinions. If the above has been addressed in another thread please let me know.

 

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Do a search here on CT for "cleaning coins" & also "restoration conservation" & most of your questions can be answered.

 

Thanks C-B-D. I'll do that.

 

And the answer to your question would be yes, coin shops do clean their coins. I've seen it happen in multiple shops.

And to add information, ANACS now offers conservation services as well.

 

The reason it is said that people should not clean coins is that there are infinitely many WRONG ways to clean a coin, with ony a few non-destuctive methods. In reality, the vast majority of people who want to clean coins do not have the knowledge of how to properly clean a coin without harming it. There are some market acceptable cleaning methods, but these should only be used by those with experience in the subject, as they can also cause damage if they are not done exactly right. In order to protect the majority of people, the blanket statement that people should not clean coins has come about. I am sure that Doug could articulate this better than I, as he has experience in explaining this.

 

Numis-addict that makes logical sense.

 

You are confusing the accepted market definitions of cleaning and dipping.

Morgan dollars are the one exception to the rule that 19th century coinage should not be bright white. Hundreds of thousands of these coins were stored in US Mint bags for decade upon decade and were released in large batches from the early 1960s through the late 1970s. The majority of these released coins were either blast white or were only lightly toned since they sat in bags against one another and had little opportunity to tone in more traditional ways. Therefore, a huge number of naturally white Morgan dollars are still in the marketplace and will show up raw or in NGC and PCGS holders.

Additionally, many Morgan dollars have been dipped and dipping a lightly or moderately toned mint state coin generally produces a bright white coin that the market embraces and that PCGS and NGC will happily certify as problem-free. There is no need to tell the grading services that these coins have been dipped and I would expect that they realize they have been dipped upon seeing them in submissions.

The problems folks have are typically two-fold. First, coins that are low AU or below are usually very poor candidates for dipping and these coins will often appear lifeless and lackluster after a dip. They will also look a pale color and this is not consistent with a 19th century coin, for example, that has seen extensive circulation. These coins are usually sold for less than other examples because people realize they should shy away from this look due to poor future liquidity and value. Secondly, many people will alternatively clean coins with an abrasive cleaner or wipe (cloth, thumb, whatever) and, while this removes the toning or tarnish that a dip will remove, it also leaves hairlines all over the coin. Folks experienced in looking at coins will identify hairlines and know the coin was cleaned. These pieces are usually rejected by NGC and PCGS for problem-free certification.

Your local dealer likely buys these Morgan dollars already certified from a regional distributor who only deals with the wholesale trade. Regardless, these bright coins will nearly universally have been bright white because of a light dip, not a cleaning, or because they came bright white directly from US Mint bags decades ago.

 

Thanks for the input Your response makes sense and helps answer some of my questions.

 

I agree with you completely and I go by the philosophy that dipping is doctoring. However, I also realize that the vast majority of the hobby-industry does not agree with this personal philosophy and also makes a distinction between dipping and cleaning.

 

The reason why it's preached extensively is because most collectors don't know the proper way to clean a coin. Do it incorrectly and you wind up with a piece that no other (seasoned) collector will want..........

 

I have experimented with just about every silver coin cleaning method that I have found while researching the topic on the internet. After many, many, many failures I have developed a successful methodology to clean coins that are at least .900 fine silver. By cleaning I mean removing any dirt, residues and organic substances along with removing unattractive tarnish/toning which is typically brown, grey or black.

Taking into account that tarnish/toning damages the surface of a silver coin I have a question about ethics.

I can buy a $25 heavily tarnished but well struck and detailed Morgan apply my cleaning methods and turn that coin into a white, shiny cart wheeling $45 Morgan.

LCSs and dealers do this I'm assuming ,and TPGs charge for the service so is it ethically sound for me to do this?

 

"Taking into account that tarnish/toning damages the surface of a silver coin I have a question about ethics."

I don't believe the above is a true statement.

"I can buy a $25 heavily tarnished but well struck and detailed Morgan apply my cleaning methods and turn that coin into a white, shiny cart wheeling $45 Morgan."

If you can do the above then you shouldn't be wasting your time here.

 

so your a crook?

 

I don't know about all dealers/coin stores, but I know most of the less reputable ones do.

One of the pawn shops near me, that buys coins now and then, dips the silver coins in something. Destroy what, if any, was left of the original mint luster, and dulls the appearance.

 

@ Purple88...

If a buyer asks you directly if you cleaned your coins, how do you answer?

If you fully disclose what you did to the coin, and the buyer still wants to pay $45 for your $25 Morgan, I say fine.

My 2 cents for what its worth.

 

I have no desire to go into the business of selling coins. Collecting coins is a hobby of mine that I enjoy greatly.

 

How does that make me a crook? Then by your logic NGC and PCGS are crooks as well by providing their conservation/restoration service for a fee to the general public.

 

The pawn shops near me do the same thing. They leave the coin in the dip too long thus creating that dull appearance then they mark the coins up 300%.