Discussion Topic- Why are Carr "Fantasy Overstrikes" not considered Counterfeits?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Jack D. Young, May 6, 2022.

  1. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Carr is basically taking another designer's/artist product and changing various portions and then reproducing it for his own profit. It may be legal or not.
    However, it is a current income production , purchased by individuals hoping its
    value will climb like a mini Rembrandt over time. I will wait until the Chinese or someone else starts copying his ( with very minor changes) and resales at a portion of his price. Of course then the threads will pop up about how unfair that is . :) Jim
    Paddy54 likes this.
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  3. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Making a market ALWAYS comes with that risk. I would not wait for the outcome.
  4. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    We'll let you know if we spot it. ;)
    Oldhoopster and charley like this.
  5. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    I consider these fantasy coins. Both were never issued as legal tender with that date and the 1918 Peace Dollar is not a counterfeit of the DC over-strike. The reverse is not the broken sword reverse.
    Pickin and Grinin likes this.
  6. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    It truly is no country for old men, when you can't use 'to', or 'too', or 'two' or 'tu', with some ankle biter or the ankle biter master burping on the usage.

    Now, if I was an old man wearing a tutu ,well....fair game (had to fit an expansion of 'to' in there somewhere).

    I am old my mind fantasizes.
  7. Black Friar

    Black Friar Well-Known Member

    The "Chinese Replica" of a replica is truly a gobsmacking and hilarious result.
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  8. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Interesting responses!

    Some actually address the question(s) I tried to ask...

    I had no intention of calling these anything- just trying to understand why they are NOT counterfeits.

    What I have gleaned from this is:

    Carr has no intent to defraud, so they are not counterfeits.

    Carr's are "fantasy" pieces and other than the 1964-D peace they are dated with non-existent dates for the series they duplicate and therefore not counterfeits.

    I am still lost on overstamping on genuine coins but maybe that is just me.

    But if using a genuine coin as the planchett makes it good to go then maybe this one is OK, especially since it is slabbed by a top TPG as genuine.

    my 2nd-pcgs comp.jpg

    Thanks again for the responses!
  9. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    And rambles a bit too ;)
    charley, CoinCorgi and Kentucky like this.
  10. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The coins he issues with official designs but with non-existent dates have not been called counterfeits. I don't care for them because there is a risk that people with less experience and too much money on their hands will get fooled by one of these things as a "great discovery of a previously unknown issue."
  11. CoinCorgi

    CoinCorgi Tell your dog I said hi!

    In this sense, DC has intent to deceive a coin collector (not the gubmint, not the general public). Perhaps a naive one, or one without an encyclopedic memory of all series, or one who doesn't do their due diligence in researching a coin before buying (who does that every time?). Certainly a re-seller of these objects is not as diligently warning people with the same disclaimer that DC uses - “Do not attempt to use these as legal tender. This product is NOT endorsed or approved by the US Mint, US Treasury, or US Government.” And furthermore, that disclaimer makes no mention that the date/mintmark are fantasy pieces.
    Paddy54 likes this.
  12. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    He's not taking a dollar and turning it into another dollar, because his
    dollar can't be spent. But I have seen artisans buy tons of Morgans and Peace dollars (at my old B and M coin shop) to use in jewelry. So they are both taking dollars and using them in their work.
    Personally I don't care for his stuff and people shouldn't buy it, and that would put an end to it.
    Paddy54 likes this.
  13. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Look up the definition of "counterfeit" from the source of your choice, and it will almost certainly say something about "fraudulent intent" or "intent to deceive".

    Things that are fraudulent and not OK:
    • Strike a blank of whatever metal into something that's then passed as a US coin (classic counterfeiting)
    • Shave a copper cent down to the diameter of a dime, with the idea of using it in a vending machine
    • Plate a new-fangled 5-cent piece (that doesn't say "cents" anywhere) with gold, after putting reeds on its edge, and pass it as a $5 gold coin
    • Fasten a "D" mintmark onto a 1916 dime or a 1932 quarter, and try to sell it as a key date
    • Shave a mintmark off an 1895 dollar, and try to pass it as a rarity
    • Restrike a random Morgan dollar to show a date of 1895, then sell it for a gain (even if you slip it into an "unsearched lot" and make no claims besides including it in the photo)
    • Restrike a random Morgan dollar to be the same date and mintmark, but in mint-state condition instead of circulated, and then sell it as an MS Morgan of that date
    • Doctor a coin's surface or devices to make it appear as a higher grade, then sell it as that higher grade
    • Strike a coin with the ASE design and a date of 1909, from a blank of silver-plated iron, then sell it as a "silver dollar"
    Things that are not fraudulent and are OK:
    • Draw a mustache on George Washington on a $1 bill
    • Run a cent through a press to elongate it and impress a new design on it
    • Carve a buffalo nickel so there's a skull on the obverse instead of the normal profile
    • Drill out the fields from a coin to turn it into a pendant (maybe not "OK", but not fraudulent)
    • Restrike a random Morgan dollar with a date of 1922, then sell it as a restruck fantasy coin
    • Strike anything that you please, and put COPY on it in a size and location that's visible and difficult to efface
    Things that I don't know how to classify:
    • Restrike a random Peace dollar as a 1964-D, since those were actually struck and nobody can ever prove all the real ones were destroyed
    • Strike a coin from a blank or another coin in a way that changes its displayed face value, but leaves that value denominated in dollars or cents, then sell it as whatever you please -- I know the von NotHaus case hinged on intent to establish a competing currency, but I feel like my footing on this scenario is extremely uncertain.
    Pickin and Grinin and TopcatCoin like this.
  14. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    They could get him but they don't because he's a small-fry. Everybody starts doing it, you'll see how quick they get him. For now, the way he's doing it, let he and his fans rationalize he's legal, nobody cares.
    Paddy54 likes this.
  15. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    "Things that are not fraudulent and are OK: Restrike a random Morgan dollar with a date of 1922, then sell it as a restruck fantasy coin"; I'm sorry, I just don't get it...
    charley and Paddy54 like this.
  16. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Hey brother can you spare a half dime?

    A few years back there was a news stoty that got blown up for several reasons...it was about a $2 bill being used to make a purchase. The cashier was clueless that a $2 bill was real tender.
    So again lets reverse this the cashier takes a Carr piece as payment...now true the collector isn't going to be spending his products...but the kid or grand kid who just ripped off grand dads collection.
    This is one reason items need be marked as "COPY" .
    Years ago I was on Rt 1 in Va. Kings Hwy. In a store some kids I noticed were at the coin star...fussing..
    It seems that the helped themselves to someones Morgans and were having a difficult time trying to get a coin star to accept them.....np how many you have 15 you say heres $25 .
    So things like this happens more than one would think...the kids wanted cigs and didnt care how they got them.
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    So tere's an issue with something worth well over face value?

  18. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Let's review the steps here:

    1) Carr obtains a US silver dollar with a face value of $1.
    2) Carr overstrikes it to bear a fantasy date, still with a denomination of $1.
    3) Carr sells the restrike to a collector.
    4) Child steals restrike from collector.
    5) Child spends restrike at face value.
    6) Cashier accepts restrike at face value.

    The cashier has just accepted an altered $1 coin at its $1 face value. OH NOES!!!

    The only criminal act I see here, and the only victim I see here, both appear in step 4. It looks to me like Carr's hands are entirely clean...?
    MIGuy and TopcatCoin like this.
  19. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    I am sure he has enough finances and "friends" in the coin area to have silver dollar sized discs produced by a bullion house to make thousands of the art copies, why damage collector items just to show off? Just to make it sound more "real" ? But it is his show and people can form whatever opinions they derive from the action of his character. I am sure it doesn't bother the team. IMO, Jim
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  20. Chiefbullsit

    Chiefbullsit CRAZY HORSE

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