Diodotus Tryphon Autokrator - Seleucid Kingdom - Recent Purchase

I recently purchased this Bronze example of Diodotus Tryphon Autokrator
(142-138 B.C.) to add to my collection of Seleucid Kings. AE18., 5.4gm.,
Obv: Diademed head, right.
Rev: Macedonian cavalry helmet with ibex horn, control marks to left.
BAΣIΛEΩΣ TΡΥΦΩNOΣ to right, AΥTOKΡATOΡOΣ to left.
Antioch on the Orontes mint.
Ref: SNG Spaer 1838, Houghton 261,

(Does anyone have a definitive answer as to the origin of the 'indents' on both sides of these types of coins? Always bronze, not silver?)

 

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As I understand, at least for Roman provincial coins, the dimples on each side are called "centration dimples." This was where the celator/artisan put a compass-type object and finished the die in a relatively round manner.
Basically, they were there to keep the coin as round as possible.
They are not always there, and usually on larger bronze coins, but can be found in a variety of circumstances.

 

Great new addition @Topcat7 ! Good portrait and rad helmet!
I've been a fan of these coins, the gnarly horned helmets his men wore and the wild usurper literally beaten by a tidal wave for some time (the silver one are to die for).
Here's a write up I did on the man showcasing his coins: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/di...-ancient-fail-o-king-tryphon-the-soft.344555/
And the man of the hour himself:


And to answer your question they are just the usual centration dimples that are used when making the flan and I don't recall ever seeing them on silver.

 

@Ryro thank you for the link. Very interesting. I am going back to it 'coffee in hand'.

 

Many theories but nothing definite at least that I know of. What we do know for Seleucids, other kingdoms may have another reason? These marks only occur on bronze and were placed prior to striking meaning they were only done on the flan and they were not part of the die. We know this because brockages also contain these mark on both sides. They were not used for filing the edges of coins because they also occur on serrate. My best guess would have been to make the surface smooth prior to striking, but I've been told there is a brockage with raised parts and this center divot. Lastly these marks never occur exactly in the center of the flan.
So they are not used for smoothing, not on the die itself, and not used for centering. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

Thank you @David@PCC

 

These aren't centration dimples. Centration dimples are from using some sort of compass on the dies while engraving the design, so they appear as raised dimples on the coins themselves. These aren't raised: they're holes, and were made on the flans rather than on the dies, as @David@PCC points out. As he mentions, there's a theory that they were part of the process of using a lathe on the flans. See the article entitled "Lathe Machining of Bronze Coin Flans" beginning at http://www.classicalcoins.com/flans1.html, as well as the discussion in the thread at https://www.cointalk.com/threads/finally-a-diadumenian.361348/. See also Butcher, Kevin, Roman Provincial Coins: An Introduction to the Greek Imperials (Seaby, London, 1988) at p, 67: "The coins [of Moesia Inferior] frequently have a small circular depression in the centre of the obverse and reverse, possibly the result of being clamped in a sort of lathe device used to smooth off the edges of the coin."

Here's an example I own from Marcianopolis:



One from Tomis:



Anchialus in Thrace:


I don't think that the fact that these indentations sometimes appear on serrated coins disproves the theory. The serration could have been something done afterwards. Note how perfectly round the coin above would be without the serrations.

 

Serrations were part of the casting process and not done afterwards. Sprues are still visible on these.

 

Nice addition! These coins are super cool. Mine comes with an excellent pedigree.


Seleukid Kingdom
Diodotos Tryphon
AE17, Antioch mint, struck ca. 142-139 BC
Dia.: 17 mm
Wt.: 4.8 g
Obv.: Diademed head of Tryphon right
Rev.: BAΣΙΛEΩΣ TPYФΩNOΣ AYTOKPATOPOΣ to right and left of a Macedonian helmet left, adorned with ibex horn. Star in lower left field
Ref.: BMC Vol. IV 11-12; Babelon 1052; Hoover HGC 1061; Houghton SC 2034.2e
Ex Ryro Collection, Ex David@PCC

 

I'm not sure where they are; I don't see them. But all that would mean is that they had some purpose in addition to the lathing suggested above; it doesn't definitively rule out the theory that they were used for lathing the flans on non-serrated coins.

 

This sold on eBay last year. As far as non serrated coins those also have sprues. As stated above I'm only referring to Seleucid coins and not other kingdoms since that is what the op is about.

 

To that you can add Ex Bassem Daou