Did it CAC? 1832 Half Dime

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Publius2, Nov 16, 2021.

  1. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    Up for your consideration is a 1832 half dime, die marriage LM-12. It is in an NGC slab, graded AU-58. Photos are mine and are pretty representative of the coin in hand. There are some hairlines in the obverse fields but I can only see them in the photos and under a 10X loupe.

    The anomaly of the reverse shield is due to a bulge in the die and is thus as-minted. Typical of this die.

    Reveal tomorrow.

    1832 LM-12 Obv.jpg 1832 LM-12 Rev.jpg
     
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  3. Matthew Kruse

    Matthew Kruse Young Numismatist

    I’m surprised the coin didn’t grade details, with all the scratches. Unless they are on the holder?
     
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  4. Vertigo

    Vertigo Did someone say bust?

    Regardless of what caused that bulge, I'm going to say that was enough to keep it from getting a bean. Also on the obverse in that area it seems weakly struck. Another thing that will stop the bean.
     
  5. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    Probably not, which means yes.
    Since I always get these wrong
     
    Noah Worke and Vertigo like this.
  6. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Hey brother can you spare a half dime?

    As a half dime collector 1829-1873 it isn't uncommon for a specimen to have been cleaned at one time or another. These were housed in coin boards that contained high levels of chemicals that caused most of the coins to turn dark. I see hundreds of them that have been dipped ,cleaned and retoned. As a h 10 collector you learn to live with it....or else find another series to collect.
    I've lost count how many I have at present.... I know approximately I have 2 double row slab boxes filled...I'm thinking 90% have at one time or another been cleaned ,wiped, dipped, and retoned.
    Seated quarters are the same... as well a lot of series that are 150 +/- years old.

    As far as beans go ...to me its a waste of money... and I've never have or will purchase a coin with any sticker on it.... without it being removed before I buy it,and refused to pay any premiums on them.
    I see a nice 189 year old coin that most probably been cleaned ,and retoned. Does it deserve the money of a perfect specimen no.... but it does not need be over looked or detailed for the life it has been through? That a question for the buyer, as for myself I have no issues pulling the trigger on this specimen to purchase it.
    If you only worrie about whether or not a coin will bean ...then you may want to find a series less than 75 years old....where the possibility of finding a specimen that is pristine
    Is much greater than coins dating back 100+ years of circulation.
     
  7. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 65 years Supporter

    I would guess no for the bean. I see slight wear on top of the wings and definitely on the hair high points. I would go as far as calling it a strong AU55.
     
    john-charles likes this.
  8. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Hey brother can you spare a half dime?

    C:WINDOWSTempE897 - 20200517_073653.jpg C:WINDOWSTempE898 - 20200517_073734.jpg 20211115_231737.jpg 20211115_231851.jpg
    Here's two half dimes one cap bust the other seated. Coin 1 has some nice color ,to my eyes I have no issues. Has it been cleaned and retoned...most probably yes....the 1855 O I cherry picked this past Sunday , struck on rusted dies, cleaned, and dipped, and guess what ? Its 1 of only 5 known specimens with this die marriage.
    Not even been assigned a R factor but most probably an R- 7 or an R -6 atleast.
    Would I prefered both to be Au or better heck yes....but unfortunately you sometimes need to take what one can find or get.
    At the end of the day one only needs to please ones self....and need not have to account to any others.....its your collection .
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
  9. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    The scratches/hairlines are not on the holder, they are on the coin and I mentioned them in the original post. They are so small that they can't be seen with the naked eye and I didn't even know they were there until I saw my photographs. Then, I couldn't detect them with a 5X loupe. They only showed up when I used a 10X loupe.

    In another thread that @Insider started on the definition of a scratch, I mentioned that the limit of the 20/20 unaided human eye is 10 microns, which is 0.000393701 inches, but let's just call it 0.0004". That is 4 ten thousands of an inch. A human hair is about 70 microns +- 20.

    This little half dime is 6/10's of an inch in diameter. What do you think the width of those hairlines might be?

    So, I'm not at all sure calling these marks scratches or even hairlines is appropriate. It is one of the problems of high resolution photography in that it magnifies "defects" that are so small that they wouldn't signify in any normal environment.

    And one other thing about hairlines: The TPGs routinely straight-grade MS and PF coins with hairlines. They may, and often do, knock the grade down for them. And individual collectors are of course free to consider them how they like irrespective of what the TPGs do.
     
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  10. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    CAC has crazy tastes, it might have.
     
    Derek2200 likes this.
  11. geekpryde

    geekpryde Husband and Father Moderator

    I'm going to say "NO CAC".
     
  12. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    No CAC. Strike seems kind of light, not sure if it is all the "anomaly". Looks nice, I could own it happily, but not original skin.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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  13. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    I can't see a 58 here...no CAC
     
  14. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Vertigo, posted: "Regardless of what caused that bulge, I'm going to say that was enough to keep it from getting a bean."

    IMO, if the "bulge" is part of the variety it has no affect on anything except personal preference and eye-appeal.

    "Also on the obverse in that area it seems weakly struck. Another thing that will stop the bean."

    I had no idea that CAC would not "bean" a coin based on its strike. Is that true?


    :stop: IMO, this is the stuff (posting additional coins other than the OP's) that screws up a thread.


    I'm not interested in what you have and I don't wish to have folks starting to post comments on your coins. I'm a confused old man and can only think of one thing at a time. There may be some folks here that agree. Perhaps you can start another thread with those images because as you wrote: "...its your collection." I'll add that it is the OP's thread too.

    As for the coin in question. I sure hope it did not bean. But my opinion does not matter. I could never be a CAC grader. :(
     
    ldhair and wxcoin like this.
  15. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    I believe there were comments to that effect in the discussion on some of toughcoin's recent submission. I'd like to know too.
     
  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    A call to CAC by one of their submitters should answer all our questions.;)
     
  17. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    I'll guess "no bean"
     
  18. Steve Shupe

    Steve Shupe Member

  19. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I like the coin but don't feel it got the bean.
     
  20. 1865King

    1865King Well-Known Member

    I don't think it will CAC because it's not an AU 58. I'd call it at between a AU 50 and AU 55 no higher. As far as the hairlines virtually every coins has hairlines. I wish people would stop using the term hairlines as a catch all for any type of hairline. Same goes the term "wipe". Signs of a wipe are hairlines. However, with the coin in question from looking at the "hairlines" seen in the picture with all or most of the hairlines going in the same direction and can be seen on the fields and bust I say the coin has been cleaned or "wiped" in the past. It's still a nice coin but, I wouldn't spend the money sending it in to CAC. If it was graded AU 50 it might CAC.

    Just another opinion on the term hairlines. A coin could easily be covered in hairlines and never been cleaned or wiped. Put a mint state coin in an empty pocket and leave it there as you go thru your day. Just the fact the coin was in your pocket all day you should expect it to be covered in hairlines but, it was never technically cleaned. I did an experiment this year using a common date large cent that would grade VF. I put it in my pants pocket and left it there for a few days. I looked at it a few times each day and after 3 days all the high points were red from the wear it got while in my pocket. Was it cleaned or wiped no but, if I was to send it in it would likely been given a details grade. However, it shouldn't have because it only showed signs of natural wear.
     
  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    This is a very well thought out post and includes a very important fact concerning grading. I'll add my 2c:


    1865King, posted: "...As far as the hairlines virtually every coins has hairlines. [Unfortunately, this is not entirely true. Usually it depends on the coin type and age. For example, I'd say we can fine hairlines on most seated coinage. They are uncommon on modern issues. Check out all the 70's around.] I wish people would stop using the term hairlines as a catch all for any type of hairline. [There is nothing wrong with calling ANY HAIRLINE a hairline because that's what they are!] Same goes the term "wipe". [I never heard of the term "wipe" until 1998 when I worked with former coin dealers grading at NGC. Before that we called them "wheel marks." A "wipe" is a concentration of hairlines with the appearance of a light haze all the way to a mirror-like patch.] Signs of a wipe are hairlines. However, with the coin in question from looking at the "hairlines" seen in the picture with all or most of the hairlines going in the same direction and can be seen on the fields and bust I say the coin has been cleaned or "wiped" in the past. [A "wipe" is not cleaning!]..."

    THIS IS THE GREAT PART and totally true: "Just another opinion on the term hairlines. A coin could easily be covered in hairlines and never been cleaned or wiped. Put a mint state coin in an empty pocket and leave it there as you go thru your day. Just the fact the coin was in your pocket all day you should expect it to be covered in hairlines but, it was never technically cleaned..."

    It took me a long time to figure this out for myself. Many coins have hairlines and it does not indicate cleaning. Hairlines can occur with circulation or mishandling. These hairlines are usually seen in random directions. When hairlines are parallel, that's when it may indicate trouble. I'll remind folks that most hairlined coins ARE NOT HARSHLY CLEANED as we often read in coin forum posts. BTW, the ANA Grading Guide allows a coin with continuous hairlines to be graded up to MS-61. That's for each of you to agree on or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
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