Diadumenian denarius Opinions?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by John Hulgin, Apr 2, 2021.

  1. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    We have purchased a large collection of ancient roman and greek coins. After sending several of them away to be graded, I was quite disappointed that about half of them came back in bags (rejected). I am trying to learn more, but it is tough to distinguish. So if you can help with your opinion, that would be great. Please check back every couple days for new posts. Thanks again John

    Diadumenian: Imperial Rome
    20 mm 2.7 grams 95% silver
    I question this due to the lighter weight than I have seen, and the tooling marks on the reverse. I am not sure if tooling marks are common. IMG_18276.jpg IMG_18277.jpg IMG_18275.jpg
     
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  3. fomovore

    fomovore Active Member

    Could you point out the tooling areas?
    I'm only seeing some smoothing on the obverse.
    So my 2c: it looks genuine to me.
     
  4. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Thank you for your responses.
     
  5. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    The lines on the reverse fields look like die scratches or die polishing lines.
     
  6. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    My only question is why send these to be graded? It’s pretty much a waste of money
     
  7. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Thank you for your response

    Yes expensive, but certified 3rd party authentication gives you someone to blame if it is not what you say it is :)
     
  8. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

    It does not authenticate the coins only their grading.
     
  9. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I don’t want to sound rude, but one probably shouldn’t buy a large batch of anything if one doesn’t know if they’re authentic or not.

    I don’t know much about fine art. I wouldn’t buy a collection of paintings if I know I can’t tell the difference between authentic and factory made ones, for example.

    too much risk not enough reward
     
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  10. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    No not rude at all to point out all the obvious mistakes a person makes. Are you part of the scare people out of the room committee? By the way, I am not upset with my amazing purchase, just the 25 or so that were rejected by 3rd party grading. Thank you for your opinions, So do you think the coin is authentic?
     
  11. kirispupis

    kirispupis Supporter! Supporter

    +1 to that. Any batch containing relatively rare coins like Diadumenian and Athens drachms should be treated with great skepticism. Most reputable dealers would not include coins like these in a lot, except occasionally at the top of a pile in a lot to induce higher bids. They'll pull them aside for separate sale, and auction lots are usually made up of coins for which there are already higher grade copies for individual lots.

    Where did you purchase these?
     
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  12. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I don’t see anything that indicates it’s not authentic. You could check the Forvm fake files to see if there’s a die match to make sure
     
  13. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I wish I could help you, but I am not qualified to judge the coin's authenticity -- I can rarely tell unless it's obvious! But if you knew before buying the lot that this coin was included, the inclusion in a group lot of a denarius of Diadumenian -- which one rarely sees sold for less than $400-$500 or more -- should set off alarm bells, and lead a potential buyer to consult a knowledgeable person before making the purchase.
     
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  14. kirispupis

    kirispupis Supporter! Supporter

    I'm a newbie myself. I'm sure I can be easily fooled by fakes, but the following are good practices I've learned so far:
    - Only buy from reputable dealers. Do your research before pulling the trigger.
    - Look up the attribution. Be super-paranoid if it's unlisted.
    - Check against fakes on Forum

    I must say I'm jealous that you have an XFR analyzer. The vast majority of us here don't deal in anywhere near that coin volume to justify one. Of course, you've been collecting longer than I since you posted a very similar thread over a year ago.
     
  15. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    These were purchased over a decade ago from a dealer who purchased them from a private collector. check out some of my old posts from a few years ago to see a couple of the coins that were rejected and not rejected. I have decided to open the box again.
     
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  16. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

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  17. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Not upset with the purchase, everything that is left is already paid for and then some from all the gold and graded coins. I would certainly count them all as counterfeit, if there were not so many good ones in the mix. I just do not want to waste money on grading, and thought to get a little better insight from collectors
     
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  18. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    Can you post the others you have concerns about? Thus far you've got some real super coins
     
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  19. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    I will put up more next week.
     
  20. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    You have had plenty of thoughts here. I am not sure I have anything to add to a coin that is not in my collecting area, but that has not stopped me before.
    The surfaces look ruff and I see no flow lines. Are the lines on the reverse innies or outies? The line that goes past the standard should be an outie, meaning the scratch was on the die and not the coin. The weight is a bit low, but I see a few near the weight of your coin on acsearch.
     
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  21. romismatist

    romismatist Well-Known Member

    Based on the pictures, I am more skeptical about this coin. While there is wear on the reverse figure, there is no wear on Diadumenian's cheek, hair or ear. The dark deposits could have been applied and the scratches also applied to artificially age the coin and give it semblance of ancient metal. Forgers have also been known to expose coins to acids/bases to age the metal as well. Lastly, there are no marks indicative of striking around the legend - sometimes you can see outwardly radiating metal around the letters as the flan is struck by the die and is forced outwards (not that this always occurs).
     
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