Since this subject keeps being brought up, I thought that I would share a little inside information First, too many collectors have this idea in their head that the greysheet is like some magic secret code that dealers use. Now I have promoted the greysheet many times, as I believe it is a valuable tool. This does not translate into that I believe collectors need a subscription to the greysheet. 3 or 4 copies a year are more than enough. The greysheet is simply a guide used by dealers. All dealers do not use the greysheet in the same way. Most use a 10% spread. We buy at 10% back of bid and sell at 10% of ask. Now in doing this, the dealer must know how to grade coins. The collector must know how to understand the principles of grading and business. This is a business folks. Dealers buy and sell coins for a living. Most survive on the simple basis of turning over material quickly. It is far easier to make a few dollars per coin and move onto the next deal. Very few dealers work on large spreads. (This is saved for TV). The greysheet covers actively traded coins only. They post numbers used by dealers in transactions between dealers. This guide is just that. A guide. The numbers are not etched in stone. Each coin must be bought on the idea that it can be sold. If someone offers me a coin that I do not have a ready customer for, I pay less. If I have a customer waiting for it, I pay more. Key dates always bring more money as all dealers can use this material. Common dates will sit on a shelf waiting for a customer. Many collectors fail to realize that dealers are not auction houses. We do not outbid each other for material. Are buy prices are based on what we believe we can obtain for the coin when sold. Not on what some other dealer will pay for it. I could care less what some other dealer will pay for a coin. I could care less what that coin will bring at auction. I could care less what that coin has been bought and sold for in the past. Now most collectors have some idea in their head what they will take for their coin when offering it for sale. If you walk up to a dealer and ask what will you pay for this coin, you are failing yourself. You automatically place yourself at a disadvantage, and most of the time you will lose! Simple as that. Mike Marrotta has stated many times that dealers see collectors walking around with a greysheet in their pocket and a target on their head. This is very true! Too often collectors falsely believe that walking the floor with a greysheet will make you part of the secret dealer club. Unless you fully understand how the greysheet works, I suggest that you leave it in the car. Do your research before you sell your material. It is far too easy to determine a value for your coin. Walk up to the dealer and quote the man a price. Extend them the same courtesy that they extend to you. If you walk up and ask what will you pay, you WILL be lowballed, and you deserve to be. Simple as that! If you do not take the time to learn about your hobby, you do not deserve to be treated as if you do. Collectors need to stop treating the coin business differently than any other business. If you are selling a car, you don't ask the potential buyer what he is willing to pay. That is ridiculous. Dealers don't ask you what you want or are willing to pay. They quote a price. You either accept it or you don't. Some offer the excuse that they do not know what their coin is worth. Is this the dealers fault? NO. There are 20 different ways to determine the value of your collection. If you rely on some dealer to "take care of you", You WILL lose. This business is ruled by those who have the knowledge. If you choose not to learn the rules which the game is played by, you cannot compete. You are just a guppy in the water with sharks. It is simply a matter of time before you are gobbled up. Now I understand that some of you may get your feelings hurt, ot may not agree with this post. That is your choice. I make my living in this business, and believe me, it is not a business for the weak. I have freely given my time to offer all of you an insight into this business. Some have listened, and they will admit that they are better off for it. Some choose to believe that they can reinvent the way that it works. I say "More power to you". All I can do is offer you the truth. If you choose not to believe it, I cannot help you. If you take the time to look at the motives of those of us here offering our help, you will see that we are not here trying to sell coins, pick up customers, or change your minds. We are here to simply help you learn. Knowledge is the key to this business. I hope that helps you understand a little better of how this business works.
I agree. Though, it's unfortunate that you even needed to write that post. Some people just don't have commen since or the respect for people trying to make a livining.
Yup. If I insisted on paying even Greysheet bid for the coins in my type set, I'd either never obtain the really nice ones for the grade that I'm looking for, or else I'd have a lot of mediocre coins. For the type of AU-58 coins I'm seeking, the ones that look like 63s and above with the slightest trace or rub I'm generally not going to get them for less than MS-60 or MS-61 money, and sometimes considerably more than that. I've had to pay roughly double the estimated "trends" prices (estimated because the AU-58 grade often isn't listed) for a few particularly choice pieces, and I don't regret it -- or feel I overpaid for them -- for a moment. Those looking to buy at Greysheet prices or less will probably wind up with mediocre coins for the grade -- at best.
Great post, ND! Thank you for stating this axiom of Austrian economics. Austria put Eugen von Boehm-Bawerk on their 100 Schilling note. On the back was not the national bank, or the national mint, but the Institute of Science. Austrians from Carl Menger to Ludwig von Mises -- and his pupils (see www.mises.org) -- made economics a true science. In doing that, they brushed away the superstition of socialism (mercantilism, etc.). Even though we buy and sell money for fun, many numismatists harbor socialist ideas about markets. The fact is that past prices are irrelevant. There are secret clubs within the secret club. In other words, dealers build relationships. Dealers know each other by reputation or from transactions. This is another axiom of economics. Even Austrians will claim that markets are impersonal, and they are to an extent: when you buy or sell, you care more about the material or service and the price than you do about the other person's lifestyle or religion or whatever. This is certainly true of "mature" markets such as the New York Stock Exchange or the Chicago Board of Trade. All that counts is the numbers. No one cares who you are. However, numismatics is not a "mature" market. It is a very personal business. No two people (not even dealers trading with dealers) will get the same material at the same price on the same day. Relationships matter. Be prepared to negotiate. Understand that you necessarily overgrade and overprice your own material. We all do. The only price that counts is the one that sells the item. If a collector is willing to ask, "Is that your best price?" then the collector must expect a counter-offer, as well. If a collector walks into a coin shop or bourse floor with one price in mind for one item, that does not leave room for a negotiated settlement. If a collector is willing to change the deal (price, materials, etc.) then there is an opportunity for buyer and seller to come together. As I said, relationships matter. If you talk to the dealer, you learn their needs and greeds and you can work with them in the future, if not the present. You offer a coin and you want $27. The dealer counters with $17. You can come down and he can come up, but you are still apart at $25 and $20. Ask: What would you pay $27 for? The dealer will tell you their expectations. Maybe those expectations are pipe dreams or maybe not. At least you know who you are dealing with. If you cannot do business, then you cannot. Life goes on. If you do this with enough people over enough time, you bring your own understanding of the markets up to the market level. You become a wiser collector. And that is the nicest thing about this. Relationships matter. That said, however, knowledge rules and the markets do not care if you are young or old, white or black or green, male or female or transgender, Christian or Muslim or Subgenius. If you know your material -- and if you are known to know it -- your estimations carry more weight. "Yes, I know that the XF price is $57, but according to Kevin Flynn's book, the 1857 is known for weak strikes and this has a sharp strike. Look." That carries weight. You might not get the price you are asking, but you will be remembered as someone who is knowledgeable.
That brings up several key points. As I said, numismatics is not a mature market and it never can be. 1. Coins, banknotes, medals, etc., etc., are not identical. No two are alike, even for the nominal "grade" assigned. Companies do not really issue stock certificates anymore, but the point is that if you bought 100 shares of General Motors, you would not care if they were sequentially numbered, radars, liar's poker, or whatever. You would not care if they came folded. All shares are alike. However, in collecting, we want the best material (for the price we can meet) and the collector with the better eye or superior knowledge comes out ahead. 2. Prices in guides are for average items in the grade. 3. Prices in guides are for undamaged items and unremarkable examples. There is no such thing as "Very Fine with Rim Nicks" or "AU-58 With Superior Eye Appeal." 4. Price guides must be composed from past transactions, but the past is irrelevant. So, today's transactions set new prices to be reported tomorrow. Those new prices are always the result of transactions between people with "advanced" (in either time or depth) knowledge. 5. Greysheet? There are coins that dealers pay Red Book for.
