Dealer Rant re: + Grading & CAC verification

I came across this "rant" while surfing a well respected dealer's website. I commend him for taking a position and trusting his own judgement. While I know this topic has been discussed many times, I like his thinking on the matter. Do you agree?

Will this be the end of the grading problem...of course not. As I said, grading is an OPINION and every coin is DIFFERENT. So we can soon take all of the MS65 "+" 1881-S Morgan Dollars and line them up from best to worst and we will see that they are all different and all deserve slightly different grades...so in the year 2525, if man is still alive, we will grade a coin MS65.739265. So now we will have low end CAC's and high end CAC's. We will have low end "+" coins and high end "+" coins. We will have stunning high end coins with CAC stickers and over graded and unattractive coins with CAC stickers. We will see amazing top end coins with "+" designations and average, unapealing coins with "+" designations. Why? Because my opinion is different than your opinion and our opinions are different than CAC's opinions and CAC's opinions are going to be different than PCGS and NGC's opinion.

Just as CAC has not solved any problems inherit in the grading of coins, neither will the addition of a "+" designation. It WILL give all the dealers and collectors something else to beeyatch about..."Why did THAT coin receive a "+" designation and THIS one didn't??!!??" It will also give those so inclined a reason to resubmit coins to PCGS one more time and allow PCGS to receive grading fees for those resubmissions one more time...

And after every coin has been sliced and diced and "Plus'd" and "CAC'd" and "Star'd" and "CAM'd", we will still have no idea what the coin actually looks like. How well is it struck, is it original or dipped, does it have significant contact marks or hairlines. Is it original and beautifully toned or original and butt ugly? How is the luster...non-existant, weak, good, strong, intense, amazing...etc. So it gets right back to the coin...every one is different and every coin must be evaluated on its own merits.

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Good read...and interesting. It just rings out learn to grade yourself.

 

It is their opinion and they have every right to it and to express it. I am of the opinion that they are a business and need to make a profit and have every right to do so. If they do not come up with new and fresh ideas to get people to submit more coins, how do they maintain profitability?

Duke, not sure that it really means you need to learn to grade for yourself to enjoy coins, but if you would like an idea of market value it is probably a good place to start.

 

the middle made me laugh. after looking at EVERY TABLE (200ish) at the csns show yesterday of the + pcgs and cac coins i saw they all looked overpriced. theres always going to be enough normally slabbed coins to prove that all this extra grading and verification is not worth it.

 

I would have save thousands over the years if I have consistently evaluated each coin and paid less attention to the grade on the holder.

 

I agree with Duke. If you are going to buy coins and want to get the best coin for the money and not spend more money over the years thatn you should, you need to learn to grade the coins you are buying yourself. You dont have to be able to grade to enjoy or collect coins but you definately do if you dont want to overpay fro every coin you buy.
People would not over charge for coins that are not the grade they say they are would they?

 

Catbert, why didn't you just copy/paste this from the NGC forum? Then, everyone here could have read the comments from others as well.

Just a suggestion.

Chris

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3979677#Post3979677

 

Chris - a reasonable suggestion , but I decided to also post it here because I perceive that many here do not frequent that board (or won't go to the link and post a response). I think that there are many more newer collectors on CoinTalk and I am interested in their direct response.

Now, let me ask you a question. Have you ever posted the same thread in more than one board? Why did you do that? :whistle:

 

Yes, I have! I did it to pass along information to others, as you said, because some may not participate on both sites.

Now, I would imagine that you are going to ask me if I ever posted a link between two identical threads that I started on two separate forums. The answer is "No!" because I just now thought about it.

Chris

 

Honestly, that is why you should learn to grade yourself. No grading will ever be completely subjective, just as no coin in a holder is that grade. People will always disagree, PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc, none of them have a lock on what the grade is of any given coin, it is still just an opinion, granted it is the opinion of expert graders and it has been consensused, but it is still just an opinion. Additionally, if people are willing to pay extra for a CAC'd coin then go nuts. I see no reason why I should pay extra for a coin that someone else has looked at and said, yup I agree with that grade. I can do that for myself. I can see where the big time investor might want someone to do that for him, but that does not mean I am willing to pay and extra X% over the value of the coin for an agreement and what amounts to a green star for good grading. I can give those to myself in one of baha's threads.

 

Chris,

It is my opinion that if you make the same post in two different forums you get honest responses. If you post on one forum and link to the others, the responses already given in the first forum have a tendency to influence the posts of the second forum, especially when there is a disparity between the relative experience of the two forum's members.

Having said that, I have always thought that Aspen Park had a nice but pricey inventory. He had an Appalachian Jefferson on his site for years for $1,750. The coin is no longer in his inventory but I am not sure he sold it at that price.

Regarding the rant, I think it is rather foolish for a dealer to publicly put that on their website. Based on his inventory, his clientele probably consists of the exact type of collectors who would want the additional security of a CAC sticker or plus designation before purchasing. By slamming both the CAC and Secure Plus designation, he is taking a huge risk that could result in the loss of customers or potential customers. After all, if you are going to list your inventory at premium prices and not have any industry recognized (CAC-SecurePlus) premium coins in your inventory, it may appear that you are selling standard grade material for PQ prices. I hope for his sake that his rant is not in response to frustration with his customers about the issue.

 

Yes, that's true, but can't that be a good thing? If one forum is comprised of predominantly inexperienced members, how can they be expected to form educated responses without input from those in the know?

Regarding Aspen Park, it sounds to me like he is frustrated by the CAC/SecurePlus changes in the grading community. I, too, feel that his coins are a little pricey, and he is probably getting hit with negative feedback from his (former?) customers because he is not carrying coins with those designations. Perhaps he is feeling this way because he doesn't relish the thought of the expense to resubmit some of his inventory without knowing positively that they will be acceptable.

Chris

 

Ultimately the plus was designed for dealers to get an additional dollar out of a coin.PCGS is a business,and with any business,you have to add additions and upgrades,and bells & whistles or your business doesnt do more business,or make more money.dealers will spend extra money to get a plus,and if they do get it,they will ask for more money,and parade around like it is something special.more than their grading fees + original asking price.it is a straight up GIMMICK

a gimmick is a quirky feature that distinguishes a product or service without adding any obvious function or value

add GIMMICK PLOY

a ploy is a manoeuvre or tactic in a game, conversation, etc.; stratagem; gambit

 

I was hoping to generate some discussion, particularly regarding his observation that:

....after every coin has been sliced and diced and "Plus'd" and "CAC'd" and "Star'd" and "CAM'd", we will still have no idea what the coin actually looks like. How well is it struck, is it original or dipped, does it have significant contact marks or hairlines. Is it original and beautifully toned or original and butt ugly? How is the luster...non-existant, weak, good, strong, intense, amazing...etc. So it gets right back to the coin...every one is different and every coin must be evaluated on its own merits.

To me, this is true and important to remember after all the hype of various designations.

 

One simple reality... Truth is timeless.

Each coin is unique and must be evaluated on it's own merits.

Amen to Truth !

 

If one were to attempt to read between the lines, one might draw the conclusion that he doesn't want to have to shell out cash to have his pricey coins resubmitted for an added approval that they may not get.

Chris

 

Cat,

I absolutely agree with that statement. In fact, I have a very similar statement in the introduction of my NGC registry set. Here is the quote:

"Registry sets are typically all about grade, the number on the plastic, and points, the number on the screen. The majority of the registry participants simply list their coins in the appropriate slot never bothering to photograph or describe their coins. There is no doubt that the highest grade should be rewarded, but just as toning is only the start to eye appeal; grade is only the start to a great coin or collection. A great collection must have it all. Each coin should be superlative in one way or another, whether it is a top pop with blazing luster, a monster toner with undeniable eye appeal, or a hammered strike on a normally weakly struck issue, it must be special. Regardless of what attributes make the coin special, a number can never describe a great coin. I wouldn’t even know how to evaluate a collection without photos & descriptions."

Evan is right. It does not matter that the coin is a top pop CAC Secure Plus coin if it is ugly as hell. However, you don't become a successful business man by telling your customers they are wrong. He could have made his point in a much more positive fashion that would not have been offensive to his clientele.

 

The CAC seal of approval, the + designation for PCGS, and the * for NGC, may represent their opinions of the choicest in that grade. However, all it really does is jack up the price on a coin that may or may not be that attractive to you. With all the new inexperienced bidders on ebay and other auction houses, a simple $300 coin will sell for $350 or more. The only one to win in this game is the seller, the graders (for resubmissions and extra $$ for the designation, and the auction houses, for higher premiums.


The only thing that may turn out to be good is the PCGS photo security shot of the coin so it can always be ID'd.

Bruce

 

I happened to hear this dealer state at a show that he had little use for CAC. He has some nice coins in his inventory but I have never bought from him.

Some dealers do not like CAC -- if they're not selling a lot of CAC coins, it's easy to understand why.