cold hard reality

I went to an outdoor antique show in February. I bought three loose morgan dollars in cardboard holders. That got me interested in Morgans. March and April I bought some slabs on ebay, and some more loose ones on ebay. Total spent? I dont know. I figure when I dumped my coins at the local coin shows I took home quick cash of $500 total (the coins were all 1880-o. It was a two month educational experiment. BOTTOM-LINE: Some lessons: If you buy coins in cardboard holders, grade them yourself. Dont pay $45 for a coin that is overgraded by the dealer, and grades very fine with a $20 grey sheet price. STAY AWAY from all slabs that are not PCGS or NGC. I had two PCGS slabs with MS-62 grades. THe guys at the show jumped on those. They all love the PCGS slabs. The other lower-tier grading company slabs, I was told were two or three points over graded. I disagreed, or rather I wanted to disagree. But you cant argue with dealers who buy and sell all the time. And when you want the quick cash, you have to take their appraisal. The coin collecting hobby is a screwed up hobby. I STILL say theres too many grades. And dont tell me about the ANC grading guide. That is no help. Theres no precise guide that tells you the difference between a weak strike, and circulation wear; or the difference between circulation wear and bag marks. Or how big the bagmarks should be for a given grade. OR wear the bagmarks are allowed, for a given grade. So ATTENTION ALL COLLECTORS: Be careful when you buy loose coins. Question the dealers grades. Buy a magnifying glass if you dont have one. Or stick to PCGS slabbed coins. Take an occasional gamble on a loose coin in a key date, but be careful. Dont PAY MS prices on loose coins. Theres too much risk. And DONT buy loose coins on ebay. I WOULD ADVISE A LETTER-WRITING CAMPAIGN TO EBAY: EXPLAIN to ebay that the coin hobby has too many grades, and the risk of buying over-graded coins is too severe. I would recommend that ebay BAN all coin auctions of LOOSE coins in MS grades. ITs called coin collecting. ITs not called coin gambling. Theres too much bullcrap and gambling in this hobby. it has to stop. Ebay does take steps to protect consumers, right?

 

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Wrong! eBay is a corporation and they take steps to protect their bottom line, just like every other corporation. Honestly, how is it eBay's fault that someone might buy an overgraded coin in a bottom-feeder's slab just because they don't know what they are doing? If I buy a lower level slab, I'm certainly careful about it and I am completely aware that the coin is probably overgraded and I bid accordingly. Don't get me wrong, I've bought my share of "dogs" that weren't worth what I paid, but it was my fault, not eBay's.

 

Where did you ever get this piece of information? And the moon is made of cheese!

 

You say not to tell you about the ANA guide--why not?
If you read it and look at many coins BEFORE you buy the coin it WILL help a great deal.

I have it and it helps with problems such as soft strike and even websites have pages of helps on such problems.

What were the lower grading Co...??

Speedy

 

Calm down my friend. Don't blame the other guy for your lack of preparation.

If you read the book before you buy the coin, and you learn to grade before you buy coins that have large value differences in different grades, you'll be way ahead.

Anyone who doesn't know what he is getting when he/she buys a coin, a stock, a piece of real estate, a sports card, a piece of collectible porcelain, etc., etc., etc., is gambling. It's just the way of the world that gamblers lose more often than they win , especially when they are competing with pros.

 

I can relate to this problem because, as a new guy, it just about has me stopped in my tracks in getting started. This is a tremendously difficult hobby for the casual enthusiast. The choices seem to be to buy lower grade inexpensive coins [what I basically have so far], or buy only slabbed coins. Even if I spend a lot of time learning to grade coins, and follow this up by properly grading them, the window is still open for a dealer to disagree with the grading -- and I think I know who will usually win that debate. I know the right thing to do is to collect what you like and not worry about it, but I'd also like to create something of value at the same time for my kids to have someday [and be able to liquidate if they want to without taking a bath]. So slabbed coins by the big two seems to be the safe way to go.

However, I wouldn't say the hobby is screwed up. There are just a lot of people who know a tremendous amount about the coins, and also happen to be skilled negotiators through years of practice. I'm not one of them. My own grading skills consist of being able to divide coins into about three grades; good, very fine, and AU & higher. So I have a lot of work to do.

 

I bought 9 Morgan Dollars just today, in the raw, and they were all accurately graded and priced according to this weeks grey sheet! And, I bought them from my local dealer! I have bought many a high grade coin from him as unc's as he doesn't go into the grading game when he buys and sells raw coins. As I have said many times before the average collector is probably good up to about MS63 and after that, well, it takes a pretty trained eye and proper knowledge to start throwing those higher grades around. Many of the Morgans I now own would probably go MS63 to MS65, perhaps a few higher, but until I commit them to a leading grading service I will have to live with the uncirculated designation. I have been collecting 30 years and I am not comfortable trying to tell anyone a coins is MS65, MS66, MS68, ect.....so I take what I read on Ebay, for the most part, as an opinion of the seller, unless the coin is slabbed! And we all know how easy it is to over grade, especially when they are our own coins? I grade very conservatively, and have found it is better to be a grade low than a grade high! I have lived with that all these years and when I do sell any coins I don't hype them up with a bunch of numbers. Thats for the grading service to do! I can live with AG, G, F, VF, EF, AU and UNC. for now!

 

Well said Cyrstalk

 

The_cave_troll: No YOU are wrong. READ what i wrote, and respond accurately!!! I said ebay needs to police LOOSE coins. I didnt say they need to police slabbed coins. Though I WILL add, they need to do something about lower-tier slabs also. On semi-key dates, theres big jumps in price from an MS-62 to MS-63 to MS-64. You dont know what you have, until you can look at it, and then you hav the hassle of asking for your money back. Crystalk64: your response as well needs clarification: you bought the coins from your LOCAL DEALER: Again: I will scream it forever: TOO MANY GRADES!! DEALERS OVERGRADE; AND LOOSE COINS are just too risky to buy on ebay. You said you take what you read on ebay as the OPINION of the seller? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???? DOES IT MEAN you DO buy loose coins on ebay? Or you DONT buy loose coins on ebay??? Im talking about EBAY!! I love ebay!!! I will go back to buying antique pocket watches on ebay. But Im not buying any more loose coins on ebay. LISTEN PEOPLE: DONT TELL ME about ebays bottomline; To you, Olddan: Ebay has had issues of FAKE autographs, and they have had to keep an eye on that aspect of their listings. EBAY HAS taken responsibility in the area of autographs, and other areas as well. With regard to bottomfeeder slabs, the sellers should be honest, and communicate in their auction the actual grade that the coin merits. As for you, Satootoko: Look Im not blaming anybody. It was a two month experiment. Im telling you Im quitting buying loose coins on ebay, (and being more discrimnatory at shows,) BEFORE it becomes a major mistake. Ive done my research. The books dont help. The grading guides are ambiguous. Its a bunch of bullcrap. The dealers grade low when they buy, and jack up the grade when they sell. So many coins are "Sliders." The dealers slide it to their advantage. Maybe some of you dont want to accept the truth. You bought coins on ebay, you loved the coins, and you dont want to accept criticism of ebay as a market for coins. If thats the case, theres a rude awakening for some of you. Those of you that are relatively young and buying loose coins on ebay, and think you got good stuff, you're going to hoard it for ten or fifteen years, and then have a rude awakening ten years from now when you go to the coin shows to collect your retirement. You're all collectors. The dealers will eat you alive, on loose coins. No Im not gonna calm down. The %$$#@!!!@# hobby is full of a bunch of $$))(%(%*(###@@@. I'll still collect coins. Ill start buying PCGS and NGC slabs. Ill start carrying grey sheets with me, and I wont be afraid to insult an occasional dealer.

 

I forgot to add, Satootoko: Baseball cards are being graded and slabbed, but you never see baseball cards being geing allocated the different mint-state grades in loose "raw" unslabbed states. Loose baseball cards are basically sold as poor, average, or mint. As for porcelain: if you buy it on ebay, that seller better tell yoy every damn crack, chip, and manufacturers mark. If you buy stock from an insider, the "insider" is required to divulge all important info. As for real estate: same thing: the seller is required to divulge all defects.

 

Hey buddy...calm down...!!!

If you read the book before you buy the coin you shouldn't have much problem...as for overgraded coins on ebay...that is why you need to look at the photo in the auction and GRADE the coin to what you grade them...don't pay the price and then say they over charged you...you pay what you want...if you don't want to pay that don't buy it.

The gray sheet won't help you...that is what dealers buy with...they sell higher...and you better be careful about insulting a dealer...make friends with dealers and they will help you.

as for this

if you look long you will find that ths is not true...they are asked to show the defects but they don't most of the time.

Speedy

 

Speedy, Ill say the same thing to you: read what I said and answer accurately. I was not incorrect. When you buy real estate the sellers are REQUIRED to divulge all defects. I said they are REQUIRED to. This is CORRECT. I did not say they always divulge defects. I said they are REQUIRED to divulge defects. When you buy a loose coin on ebay, 50% or more of the photos suck. Even if the photo is good, so what! The seller says its an MS-63 for example, maybe I agree with the seller. But maybe three more sellers at the show, say its a slider when I go to sell the coin. If theres a big jump in price in the Ms grades of the coin, then its a screwed up hobby. There should not be sliders. The hobby should not provide the leeway for a seller to jack up the grade and earn the big price jump on the next grade. To me, that seems fraudulent. I stand by my opinion; Ebay needs severe government of auctions on loose coins. Hey, any of you in South Florida: if you go to the shows, you might know Ron, the guy who grew up in California and sold bullion. Ron has traveled overseas. He says in europe they have two or three grades; Poor, average, and mint. Thats the way it should be in the United States. AS FOR THE GREY SHEET: Speedy, I have to contradict you on the grey sheet. The grey sheet is wholesale AND retail. The grey sheet has a bid column and an ask column. The bid column is what the dealer will pay. The ask column is what the dealer will sell for. The grey sheet is the only price-guide. Its not like the car industry. With the automobile business, you have the blue-book, and the black-book. Blue-book is wholesale, AKA what the dealer will pay, and Black-book is what the dealer will sell on his lot for. We dont have two guides in the coin hobby. the grey sheet is it!! The grey sheet bid and ask. Bid is wholesale. Ask is Retail.

 

Dealers----as for what they sell for...I have known dealers who sell at "Ask" and at "Bid" and some go way over both...that is what I'm talking about...There was one guy at a show I was at that was asking $60+ bucks for a proof set that you could buy another table for $35 yet they both had gray sheet...the gray sheet is a guide...not a "set in stone" rule.

Then why sell to that dealer??
A dealer is like that (sorry to any dealers)...they HAVE to buy cheap so they can make a proffit...if you were in the dealers spot you would have to buy cheap so you could make a living.

Speedy

 

Big Two my A**. I am waiting for some Franklins to come back from NGC. I checked my order online, and to my surprise a 1953 that I had sent in wasn't on the list. On the line item where it should have been listed was 1955, so I called them and told them that I sent in a 1953, not a 1955. The woman put me on hold and after about 2 minutes came back and said that someone must have mis-typed the date into their computer, but it didn't matter because the coin had been marked as "Improperly Cleaned."

I am very upset for a number of reasons. I can veryify that the coin has NEVER been cleaned as it came from a family member who had gotten it from the bank, back in '53. When I sent this coin in I was sure it would come back a 65 or 66 with full bell lines. This marks the very last time I do business with NGC or buy a coin in an NGC holder. The people at NGC, in my opinion, don't know their a** from their elbow. If they are that careless about what they "...type into the computer," and they have mis-graded this coin, then who knows what they are capable of. From now on, no more eBay or mail order either. I will buy what I like, when I see it in a shop or at a show, and all the TPG holders, including NGC and PCGS, can flush down the toilet. By the way, that group of coins that I sent to NGC would have made a complete registry set of Franklins. Guess what! I'm cracking all of them out of the NGC holders, and putting them in Kointains, and a Dansco Album.

Steve

 

I agree speedy. My wife says that I go way overboard when I check around for the best possible price. I think that if I had something to sell and and I felt that the first one or two dealers were lowballing me you betcha sweet .... well you know what I was going to say. I would keep searching until I found the price or as close to it as i could. Now before LETSBUYCOINS jumps all over me, I am a rookie, and I don't buy coins on e-bay, actually I am not buying coins right now at all., so please take this for what it is worth, just my opinion and everyone has one.

cheers all

JD

 

Ten people have twenty opinions.

Morgan dollars may be the mainstream of U.S. coin collecting, however, they are but a sliver of numismatics. At the last convention I attended, I spent about $100, $80 on books and $20 on world banknotes. I bought the notes not to "collect" them but as primary starters for a couple of research projects.

We all see the collecting of stuff, but many of the regulars here on Coin Talk spend as much time and effort on knowledge, apart from the trinkets and geegaws. We just say less about it. We all do a lot of reading, we all talk and listen, and we all participate in this and other forums. Those activities are as much the hobby as are buying and selling stuff.

About 20 years ago, when my daughter was five, and I was driving a cab and my wife was working as a waitress, we would all get home about 11:00 pm from working or being babysat and we would watch the CBS Mystery re-runs and we would all shout with Quincy: "Sam! Sam! How long has this been going on?!" and we would all laugh. There are too many injustices in the world, all of them far more grave than the price or grade of a collectible coin.

 

This may be true in some cases but is not a good rule of thumb to go by.
As a dealer there's lots of coins that I rountinely sell for UNDER BID. And there's some pieces that I'd pay OVER ASK to get.

There's really no such thing as retail anymore. The greysheet is the best price guide but it's a wholesale dealer to dealer guide. That's why it's name is "The Coin Dealers Newsletter". Many dealers pay ask for stuff they need, and many dealers charge other dealers ask for hard to find items, or items that are particularly HOT or desirable in the marketplace. Note that hot items can change from week to week.
Everyone at a coin show has a copy of the greysheet, as do most of the collectors that come into my shop. It's not really a problem, in fact I welcome it. The hobby needs a standard price guide and the greysheet is generally accepted as the best. If you really want up to date pricing info, subscribe to CoinNet or CCE. Bids there can change several times during the day.

The best friend of the collector is KNOWLEDGE, which is gained through EXPERIENCE. Telling the difference between a slider and a true unc will come if you look at enough coins. There's too many dealers out there for you to take just one persons word on grade/value.

Hope this info helps.

Nick

 

yes speedy! yes a dealer has to make a profit. But if the price guide says MS-63 is $300, for example, and he tells you at the show the coin is MS-63, then he should pay $250, for example, and then sell it for $300. BUT the dealer should not be a sc--b-- and pay MS-63 money, and then sell it for MS-64 money. That is what Im saying. Theres too much ambiguity in the hobby. The dealers can lie to you, and sound like experts and tell you the coin grades one MS grade, and then they sell it at a higher grade. Im sure plenty of them are doing it. Thats just bogus. You can read the guides, and educate yourself, and when its time to sell, the dealers can still screw you. Shop around? Sure. One bozo wanted to pay me $160 for 4 lower-tier slabs. I said no thanks. I went to the table of the guy I sold stuff to last month. The latter guy gave me $150 for one of the 4 slabs, and I went home with the other three. So yeah, shopping around is the best idea. Sometimes you're hot and tired, and the coin show is once or twice a month, and sometimes you dont have the patience and energy to shop around. Shopping around for the best deal: Im not arguing that point. But I will keep saying the same thing: the hobby is designed to allow dealers to screw people. the coin grading rules are ambiguous. Too many grades. tpoo much leeway for dealers to jack up grades on the resale.

 

First, I didn't yell at you, so why are you yelling at me?

Secondly, I did read your diatribe and then I simply pointed out the fact that eBay isn't responsible for protecting their buyers. They have repeatedly insisted that they are simply a venue where buyers and sellers meet, nothing more. It's the same as at the local flea market, where the city that happens to own the street where the market is held isn't responsible for you getting taken advantage of by a seller who has coins for sale.

Thirdly, you complain about bad pictures and sellers overgrading their coins, but then you went ahead and bought loose coins on eBay. I'm at a loss to figure this out. I don't understand why you are upset. You got what you deserved. I'm sorry to have to point this out so bluntly, but my earlier more tactful attempt was obviously misunderstood.

mmarotta has it right when he talks about forum members studying coins for a lifetime and constantly reading about coins. My coin budget is pretty limited right now and the vast majority of it is going towards books because I don't want to be taken advantage of when I buy and ultimately sell. Coin collecting has a huge group of exceptionally well educated (in matters of coins) and if you want to avoid being taken advantage of do your homework instead of conducting a doomed experiment. The fact thet you don't know how to grade accurately isn't eBay's fault and it doesn't mean that the hobby is messed up. Yes, grading is challenging and it takes quite a bit of effort and experience to differentiate the MS grades when looking at a coin, but just because you can't do it doesn't mean that no one can.

You've been a member of this forum long enough to have "heard" us talk about the dangers of buying coins on eBay and the need to be well versed in grading before before buying a coin, but it seems like you just ignored all that advice and you've reaped the harvest that you'd sown.

 

Hate to tell you this, but that is the way it has always been, and I don't see any change coming for the future. It's what they, the dealers, call the "edge" and they are always looking for it to be in their favor. There is one thing you can always depend on and that is: you are the one in control, as long as the money is still in your pocket. You dictate the rules and they play by them, or its "NO SALE". It make life so much simpler, so try it and I believe you will like it.