I dont understand all the talk about natural or artificial toning? Just finished reading a book called COIN CHEMISTRY. Best I can tell your just tampering with the the process of natural toning by changing the enviroment the coin is in.So is it the history of the coin, worried about the seller tring to cover up circulation etc.:headbang:
Basically, that is it. In general, most people want a coin that toned by a natural process, whether it was sitting in a mint set, toned in a bag at the mint, or toned in someone's album. All usually over a long period of time. Sometimes decades. That's usually what's considered NT but many times it's impossible to verify unless you owned the coin and watched it tone over 20 years. The main thing is, people usually wish to avoid anything that has been sped up or messed with by a coin doctor. People will bake coins in an oven, physically apply wild colors by various means or use some other method to speed up the process. Most do not wish to reward these people for their actions with a large premium for their coins that otherwise would have never toned. This is classified as AT. Some are obvious, others not so obvious. There are natural color progressions to look for. Also, some coins are commonly toned while others are rarely ever found in a toned state but when they are, will command a very steep price. Some sellers on ebay sell every U.S. silver coin with the exact same toning pattern and colors. That's usually a dead giveaway. But takes some investigating beyond looking at an individual auction.
thank you for your response. next,colors progress based on exposer so if you purchase blue next is ugly black.toned coins seems very chancy
I prefer to say that he belongs to the lunatic fringe. The term nut applies to those that don't know what they are saying is out in left field. He knows perfectly well.
Speaking as a physicist with a BS in chemistry, his book is interesting, but incomplete. It was basically a compilation of a number of articles on cleaning coins and chemical interactions. There is a lot more that could have been included. For example, how to remove solder from gold coins (hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid). What solvents can be used to clean coins without incurring the dreaded "CLEANED" designations. I'd like to see a comparison between the no longer available (due to HCFC solvents) Blue Ribbon and replacements such as "Coin Care". Also, trichlor, acetone, ethanol, methanol, ultra pure water, etc.
That really depends on who is buying the coin. That said, I have been know to place a premium to toned coins. hya:
The color progression, people often quote, is more complicated than a single grouping on silver coins. Here is a post where I give some links with more recent information on the silver toning color progression, based on molecular layer thicknesses. Notice that Blues occur 3 times in the overall progression and are never followed directly by black. http://www.cointalk.com/t64441/#post657165 Also, and I don't know the man White personally, but I don't know what part of his writing determines that he falls under the label of a nut or a lunatic. He just had new ideas at the time he wrote. If someone knows of a person who made the TPG very aware earlier, that toning could occur in their slabs when they thought not, and produced early evidence as to the toning process and how AT coins could be produced chemically. This information probably had opposite effects as many could use the information to experiment with coins AT processes ( and I hear they are much more advanced now), but many used the information to help identify and notice the toning. Most scientists are called "nut" at least once in their life Jim
I say he's a nit Jim because he advocates dipping every toned coin there is citing as his reason that toning is damage and will always progress and get worse. This is simply not true. And IMO for a scientist to make such claims he would have to be a nut.
Not to me because I don't know enough about them to spend the money they are asking for most. I do like to look at them and I have kept several Lincolns that have some real cool colors as well as Jefferson Nickels all of these I found in rolls and since I gave face value for them and I like them I keep them, as far as would I sell one notr unless i made it perfectly clear that I found them rolls and this is how they looked. Besides they are very common dates just pretty so no one would want to buy them. Doug what aree you reffering to when you say dip all toned coins? I have heard the term dipped a lot on here but have never asked what it is they are dipping in or why?
Personally I think the really nice toned coins are worth a premium based on their rarity as long as they are NT , but then here comes the problem sometimes even the experts can't tell the difference between NT and AT. rage
Either he's a nut... or doesn't understand coins. Or both. :bigeyes: Some of his analysis of what's happening is useful. It's his recommendations which are nutty. Or downright dangerous. Even destructive. Basically, he hates all toning and feels it should all be removed by dipping.:headbang:
I have lincoln cents that are dark read in spots. Just common lincolns. What causes this. As far as I am concerned it looks ugly. But it is just a 3 cent wheat.
In defense of the man, I do think that he is being "tarred with a large brush". His main objectives through out the book is that coins should not be allowed to tone/corrode, as he views it as destructive ( his point of view, shared by many I believe). His emphasis is on Prevention of this "destructive " process. On pg 3 of his book he was asked about a rainbow toned 1890 Morgan and replied "To answer the original question whether to clean this 1890 Morgan, my answer would be NO, just protect the coin from additional sulfur exposure." In other words, it was too far gone for him to consider dipping to conserve. As to the part comparing toning to rust on iron( p.73) he is comparing the chemical change from the normal components of a silver coin to the production of sulfides that cause the toning effect on silver. And I find nothing wrong with his chemistry. No where does he say "DIP them all if any tone exists". He does say on pg 73 also that he feels a toning up to gold color allows a fair grading process, and that any more can hide problems that should render the coin ungradeable. I have heard many say that heavy toning hides marks and altered surfaces and one must be very careful with buying these. I have read this book several times and his main emphasis is preservation. His personal philosophy, seems to be if the coin is toned to the aspect he thinks it is damaged, he will dip to halt the process and then ( he always emphasizes ) preserve it from environmental damage. I think his articles and this book had a lot to do with the popularity of INTERCEPT (tm) products as he recommended them in an early non-coin form. Read the book, you will learn a lot. Whether you agree with the author or not is acceptable in society, but calling him undeserved names should not be. IMO. Jim
I agree , even if I couldn't understand half of his equations , most of what I understood made perfect sence , thus my use of Intercept Shield products to retard further changes . rzage:thumb:
Nobody is tarring him and he is certainly entitled to his opinion. However, to say that many in the numismatic world share his point of view that toning is equivalent to damage is just plain wrong. While Doug called him a nut, I correctly classified him has part of the lunatic fringe. He may be interested in prevention, but the book also spends a lot of time discussing the removal of toning via cleaning methods including "dipping". You are making an assumption as to the reason his answer would be "NO". If you include the previous paragraph in his book the passage looks like this: For those that don't own the book, White is referring to another collector who improperly stored a rainbow toned coin that turned black. He is saying that collector should have properly stored his rainbow toned coin to prevent further toning just which is the same as his advice to the owner of the 1890 Morgan Dollar. My interpretation of White's reason is much different than yours Jim. He recognizes that the toning is beautiful and knows that the coin brings a premium. Therefore, he can't in good conscience give advice that would reduce the value of the coin. He does not explicitly say dip them all but just as you perceive his main emphasis to be preservation, Doug and I perceive it to be conservation, cleaning, and yes, dipping. I promise that both Doug and I have read his book as well as other numismatic articles he has written over the years. The theme is always the same and always in direct contradiction with the general philosophy regarding toning among experience numismatists. Furthermore, he spends almost 100 pages discussing the dangers of improper storage and the resultant damage in the form of toning. However, he only spends one sentence discussing the dangers involved in dipping a coin improperly. He completes no experiments post dipping and as we all know dipped coins have very reactive surfaces and can re-tone very quickly. I don't know about Doug, but I will continue to call him a member of the lunatic fringe until that ceases to be true.
