Coin grading a scam ?

Well, I might catch a lot of flax from this post, but I am an old timer and I am having a hard time keeping up with the new grading system that seems to try to draw a fine line between AU & AU.

What happened to the old system of grading coins by; G - VG - F - VF - EF - & AU ?
I never had a problem with knowing the condition of my coins with this simplified system.

Now trying to grade to a fine line has become a real hassel.
Someone has included codes that I don't even know what they mean.
It was bad enough when they included with the old grades the MS condition of 60 - 63 - 64 - 65 - 66 - 67 - 68 -69 & 70.
I almost thought that this was the end, having 70 as a perfect coin, but now I am not to sure.

It seems now they have added letter symbols to the grades, such as MS60B or MS63RB or MS65R & RB on Cent coins. Does anyone know what these letters stand for ? Is this another measurement of extra fine grading ?

Nickels too have these new codes such as; MS65FS. The only F designation in a nickel series I know of is Frazer, but what could the S stand for ?

Anyway, I think you get what I mean by all the US coins graded by this system.

What I don't understand mostly is that even proof coins are showing a variation of condition with a range from PF63 through PR70. And guess what, there is even a letter designation now of DC.
How or who determines a condition variation of a proof coin ? My proofs come in Mint boxes sealed in containers never touched by human hands, are they any different than the proofs you bought from the mint ?

It seems to me that the grading of coins has gone too far in trying to select a perfect coin. Of course this method is great for the coin grading servers who may have been the partys responsible for the new grading systems. I can tell you that if I were to walk into a coin shop or to buy from a dealer today, I would have no idea if I were buying a MS63 or MS63RB, but I think I would know if the coin were good, fine or un-circulated and I wouldn't have to pay the extra $ to have my coins graded & slabbed.

Dave

 

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Ok. The MS60RB means Mint State 60 Red Brown I believe. The FS on the nickels stands for full steps, which correalate to the number of steps visible on the Monticello.

 

Wow ! That was fast. Thank you for replying and explaining what some of the new letter codes mean.
I suppose there must be a new book out that explains these codes (other than De Vinci) as I can't seem to find an explaination in the Red Book. I am interested in the Franklin Halves and I see a code of MS64,65 & 66F. Is this F a designation for Full Bell and why don't they make it FB so we would have a clue ? Also what is the guide line to determine a Full Bell ?

Dave

 

Coins,
Here are some designations you will see:
DC-deep cameo
CAM-cameo
PL-prooflike-this applies to morgan dollars
dmpl-deep mirror proof like, morgan dollars again
FBL-full bell lines -franklin halves
FB-full bands on mercury dimes or roosevelt dimes
FH-full head on standing liberty quarters

 

This is a good link for the "new" coin lingo-

http://www.pcgs.com/lingo.chtml

 

Oh, and as far as determining the value of full bell line franklin halves, I believe the greysheet lists prices for those.

 

I know how you feel---while I'm not an old-timer (I'm 18) I do find the lingo that some of the grading companies use really funny and sometimes they don't make alot of "cents" such as FIRST STRIKE---hog wash...

I would disagree with this---even the proof sets from the mint are put together by people and the proofs have been touched by hands---but the workers are really carefull but sometimes they aren't like this should be---that is why you might find a proof set sometime with a fingerprints on a coin---also the sets aren't sealed---at least not he in way I think of sealed--as most proof sets can be opened and reclosed.

Speedy

 

WOW do I know what you mean. Way, way back there was this thing called a Red Book that I think was the only book on coins. The grades were all simple, terms were all normal, prices were decent. Then somewhere along the line this numismatic complication of terminology started. I can understand the purpose of most of it but I too think it is getting carried away. However, there is this thing nowadays where every trade has to have thier secret language. I too went to the PCGS web site and a few others to find out what people are talking about. Someone told me there was another one called coinfacts.com but I haven't tried that yet.
Now if your really confused as I am check out the coppercoins.com web site. There they have new terminology for coins such as 1939P-1DO-001. I'm just to old to even try to figure out that one.

 

Zaneman, I really, really appreciate the link you provided. Thank you.

Regarding the value of a full bell Franklin, I was referring to - How do you tell what a full bell is, not the value of the coins.

Dave

 

OH! Please don't tell me about more new codes. I am frustrated and confused enough.

 

Sorry about that dave. There are two different definitions of full bell lines (even more confusing!!), some people believe that if the bottom three lines are well defined, and unbroken except for directly to the right and the left of the crack, that this meets the criteria for full bell lines. Others believe, that all 6 lines on the bell are full, and unbroken. I hope that is clear. Perhaps someone will post pictures.

 

So what we need is the designation FBL and RRFBL (Really, really full bell lines):rolling:

 

This is all very confusing and difficult to grasp for newcomers, and I think that alot of potential collectors quickly become discouraged in trying to understand. So many designations, grades, etc... It makes it very hard for someone just starting out to feel confident about making any kind of purchase.

 

Hi! Zaneman,

Well, your explaination is clear, but I have looked at several what I thought of as EF or AU and I only see the crack in the bell. No lines coming from the crack. Maybe I need to look for some MS66F coins.

Dave

 

Coins4me,

Boy, does your post ring true.

 

Thanks. I think with this serious discussion, we can use a little humor.

Dave

 

Coins,
Typically the lines can only be full on mint state coins, as they are easily removed by wear.

 

I dont deal with it, I just buys what I likes and if I have to describe the condition I just use the old F VF UNC etc...with high res photos you dont need terminology as a person can see for themselves anyway. It will be a cold day in hell when I send a coin and pay for it to be graded...the most I will do is send a coin to be authenticated (ancients) and because I know places where there are highly knowledgable people, I have never had to do that either...to me coin grading services are just another way to hike the price and grab a few more bucks out of a collector...grading and most authenticating can be done by a few friendly and knowledgable long time collectors for free....If the coin is authentic and desirable, people will buy it whether it has a grading service slab or not....for me this is just a hobby...I dont mind paying a fair price for coins, but that about as far as it goes.

 

Basically fellas. It boils down to this, MOST ALL OF THAT FB, RB,FS IS PRETTY MUCH BS! I mean. Dont buy a coin becuase some one else tells you it ms69 with a perfacts numbnut on it chin. Coins used to be collected to fun but sence big Industry has move in on coin collecting. The hobbie has lost some of its fun. Its really very comen for humans to wreck everything. So im ending my little rant. JUDGE A COIN WITH YOUR OWN EYE. Not someone elses.


I miss the good old days.


(i added this after)

I have to addmit though. I dont mind the UNC's useing the MS60 and up system.

 

Carl - 1939P-1DO-001 is not a coin grading designation - it is a variety catalog indentification number.

1939P - represents the coin's "date and mintmark".

1DO - represents the coin"s variety classification "one cent double die obverse".

001- represents the specific working die attributed as striking the coin. These numbers are issued in sequential order as new varieties are discovered.

Other designation you'll find at coppercoins

DR - double die reverse
MM - repunched mint mark (D over D, S over S)
OM - punched over mint mark (D over S, S over D)