CNG-112 - Mr Shill revealed

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by pprp, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Nathan P

    Nathan P Well-Known Member

    Where on the website are you finding this information? I've looked and can't seem to find it.
     
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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    You can only see the detailed bidding information if you bid on the coin. At first I didn't see it either because I was looking under "My Purchases" but you can see the full story under "My Bids", which is further divided by auction number. Log in, My Leu > My Bids.

    For the individual coins you bid on, you can then click on the underlined number of bids and it will show you the generic bidder number, amount of bid, and date & time of the bid.
     
  4. Nathan P

    Nathan P Well-Known Member

    Nevermind I found it. I don't know if we can determine whether there is a bidder who knows the max price and is bidding it up there because can't see who the bidders are in the data. I did not want to cast aspersions on a specific auction house. That's why I didn't personally name them. I only wanted to find out if others were having the same experience as me. The fact that the particular auction house in question was recognized without me even saying their name is interesting. But even then, who knows?...Unless, I guess, all bidders get together and compare notes.
     
  5. May they die still owning it!

    In addition to practices by auction houses some regard as dubious, there are many practices by bidders that are dubious and some absolutely illegal, such as forming combinations to bid, agreements not to bid on certain lots in exchange for others not bidding on still other lots, and so on. The world of auctions has many shadowy corners.
     
  6. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    Plenty of people here admit to the last one. It should be easy enough to have them all prosecuted if that is truly the case.
     
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  7. Agricantus

    Agricantus Allium aflatunense

    Please add me to the private chat, if there is one.

    I am not fond of auction houses where the bidder info is unique only for a lot. I bid on vauctions and cng whenever I can, and on a few other sites when I really 'have to'. I enjoy parsing the metadata that cng and vauctions offer.

    How would one even take legal action against suspected shill bidding by the auction platform? Are they mandated to save logs for all bids? I think software could abuse even proxy bids. Just do a test and retract in the final moments. Nobody will notice. Those milliseconds when you don't know if it's you or Clio...
     
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  8. Volodya

    Volodya Junior Member

    This is a really fundamental point (not the tongue in cheek threat of prosecution, but the general principal.) As my friends here are aware, I think this is a genuine ethical dilemma. I'm not claiming any sort of moral high ground; I engage in this sort of thing often enough. I do have real qualms about it though and I often decline to prearrange bids, even when it would clearly be to my benefit. If anyone's interested, I offered my take on this in greater depth here: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/morality-legality-and-auction-collusion.299547/page-5#post-2794279

    Phil Davis
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  9. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    If I am bidding at auction I don't engage in this practice. Seems pretty smarmy.
     
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  10. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    I think it works both ways. Due to the curse of lot ordering I often have the following dilemma: Do I hold out for the Imperatorial lots(my collection being weaker in this area) or do I cast bids on a few special Second Punic War issues? More than once I've discussed an auction with a friend and come to the conclusion that I'm not going to win those Imperatorial lots and put my budget toward the earlier lots, often winning or at least driving up Clio and a couple other bidders' prices on them.

    That said, the opposite does certainly happen. I discussed one recent find that I haven't shared here yet, a choice and extremely rare victoriatus not correctly ID'd, with a friend who was planning to bid $600 on it. I was planning to bid $750, more if I could muster the funds. He sat it out and the coin hammered for $300 but he also spent the budget he would have saved for that coin at an auction the day before because he no longer felt the need to hold out for this one.

    I don't know what effect this has on the market overall, in both cases it was good for one consignor /seller and bad for another but I happen to know the consignor of the victoriatus was still happy with how it did(though he might not be if he sees this).
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  11. harley bissell

    harley bissell Well-Known Member

    Would someone please send me a private message about CLIO. I am interested in whether he hoards his wins or sometimes sells earlier purchases when he gets one in better condition. I am interested in viewing or participating in his auctions.
     
  12. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Supporter! Supporter

    I have bid in many timed auctions and I cannot say that I have seen a pattern of any kind at all. A case in point On May 29 of this year I won this coin CNG 111 Lot 710 Faustina I Aureus Estimated at $5000 faussnrau3.jpg The current bid was either $3000 or $3100. I bid fairly close to the closing and placed a bid of (If my memory is correct) $3607. This would be a number of bid increments over the current winning bid. The bid immediately showed up at $3250 which I assume would be one increment over that set by the previous high bidder. I got the coin at that price. I have seen occasions where my bid placed me well within the normal bid increment. On a number of occasions I was within a few dollars of being under or just over the previous high bidder. However, almost as often with the flood of bids executed within a few seconds of the lot closing i have found myself behind hundreds and even thousand of dollars behind in the dust.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  13. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Supporter! Supporter

    He has sold a handful of coins before but generally doesn't. I'd consider coins won by him to be off the market and very unlikely to ever return.
     
    TypeCoin971793 and red_spork like this.
  14. nicholasz219

    nicholasz219 Well-Known Member

    Who is Clio anyway?
     
  15. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    Rather than make this another "Clio" topic, I recommend searching for "Clio" and you'll find plenty of information about this bidder. No one here is going to divulge this person's actual identity.
     
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  16. nicholasz219

    nicholasz219 Well-Known Member

    I know of the bidder. I was not up to speed enough to know who the person behind the handle was. Whatever just conversation.
     
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  17. Multatuli

    Multatuli Homo numismaticus

    Anyway, winning or not (usually not) a lot disputed by Clio, is always an honour. Especially for people like me who don't have a budget big enough to crave masterpieces coins at numismatic auctions.
     
  18. harley bissell

    harley bissell Well-Known Member

    thank you
     
  19. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    His identity is no real secret. But, for those of us who know who he is, well, me I would not want to reveal personal information without consent. That’s just bad form at best, maybe breaking a law at the worst. I’d ask him but I haven’t seen him for a few years. I heard he moved a while back.
     
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  20. Lolli

    Lolli Active Member

    I am watching a Thurium stater from artancient.com since over at least 2 years.
    It was and is still at least the last 2 years the whole time for sale at their hompage and vcoins store. What is and was strang is the fact that the coin was offered and sold at Triton XXI, Lot: 321. Estimate $3000. Sold for $4250. 9 Jan 2018 but they are sill offering it for sale in September 2019 more than 1 1/2 year after they have sold it at Triton. I sadly do not know how to show since when they are offering this coin but it is since years. The only thing I found is the inventory number of the coin which is older than for the new ones SKU: 41914, this number can be found at vcoins listing on right side of the price.

    https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=349477

    https://www.vcoins.com/de/stores/ar...m__443_bc__bank_leu_1992/1158321/Default.aspx

    https://www.vcoins.com/de/stores/ar...m__443_bc__bank_leu_1992/1158321/Default.aspx

    How is this possible ?
    That they have forgotten to remove the coin on 2 homepages after such a long time is very unlikely. It would of course possible to ask them if the coin is still for sale and how this is possible if it was sold at Triton.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
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  21. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    Maybe they consigned it to CNG, weren't happy with the bidding, bid on the coin themselves, and won?

    Maybe they did sell it but leave it on their website at a very high price thinking it looks impressive, pricing it sky-high so no one will actually try to buy it?

    That dealer does have some nice coins but the prices are generally ridiculous. It is unsurprising that ArtAncient opted to omit the "sold coins" link in their store.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
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