Cleopatra VII - Ptolemy XV Caesarion

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by MarcusAntonius, Jun 29, 2021.

  1. MarcusAntonius

    MarcusAntonius Well-Known Member

    On a recent auction did I win some Paphos (Cyprus) minted bronzes. Need some help with identification.

    The first I identified as a RPC I 3903 type, with 25 mm and weight of just 6.34 g. is it light for a average of 7.73 g.

    Not so sure about number 2 and 3 though, the second looks like a RPC I 3902 type, (25 mm. 7.45 g.) it was classified as a Svoronos 1843 and the third as well, but this coins is even more light: (23 mm. 5.36 g.).

    Ptolemy XV Caesarion I.jpg

    Ptolemy XV Caesarion III.jpg

    Ptolemy XV Caesarion II.jpg
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  3. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member

    Hi @MarcusAntonius,

    #1 = Sv-1875, pllxii, 27 [22 listed]
    #2 = Sv-1842, pl lxi, 27-28 [20 listed]; COP-0682 to COP 0683; BMC 06. 121, #001
    #3 = Sv-1843, pl lxi, 29 [11 listed]; COP-0684

    - Broucheion

    PS Sv = Svoronos and COP = SNG Copenhagen
  4. MarcusAntonius

    MarcusAntonius Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much Broucheion.

    So the second coin was wrong categorized by the auctioneer. Do you have Information about both coins belonging or better if both are attributed to the Reign of Cleopatra VII? I am asking this because not all the experts seem to be in one line.
  5. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member

    Hi @MarcusAntonius,

    The last information I had was that the first was attributed to Ptolemy XII and the other two to Cleopatra. All from Cyprus. My personal opinion is that that sounds reasonable to me.

    - Broucheion
    +VGO.DVCKS and MarcusAntonius like this.
  6. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    I posted about mine (uglier) on FORVM a few years ago with the same questions about timeframe. I got some input from the person behind the PtolemAE Project. ( I kept pressing for a narrower date range but the answer I got was with these later Ptolemaic coins there isn’t consensus in many cases on attaching them to a particular reign and the date range can only reliably be narrowed down to 50 or 100 years sometimes.
  7. MarcusAntonius

    MarcusAntonius Well-Known Member

    Thank you Broucheion

    Can it be that they are right with the first coin: Caesarion (Ptolemy XV) son of Cleopatra and Iulius Caesar :

    The two other ones might belong to the Reign of Cleopatra but like Orange Julius was mentioning: hard to say!
    +VGO.DVCKS likes this.
  8. MarcusAntonius

    MarcusAntonius Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the links, interesting!

    Will study it once available time will allow it.
    Broucheion likes this.
  9. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member

    Hi @MarcusAntonius,

    It is possible, but for now I am waiting for the next installment of CPE to be sure.

    - Broucheion
  10. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    My impression is that the attribution of Ptolemaic bronzes is fluid and in some cases controversial, even contentious. I suggest writing your tags in pencil.

    One example:
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
    Orange Julius likes this.
  11. MarcusAntonius

    MarcusAntonius Well-Known Member

    Was happy to have been able to add a coin which was for decades attributed to Queem Cleopatra's son with no less: Emperor Iulius Caesar himself! Auctions prices of around 600 dollar have not been unusual for this coin, so I was happy to add it to my Imperatorial prov. collection as a 'must have' just only for historical importance, just as the Cleopatra VII Bronzes and Silver with Marcus Antonius are highly collectible. After I have been reading these links in the comments am I not so happy with these coins though, what happened here? Did numismatic experts working for the auctioneers regardless of any historical evidence advertise these coins as attributed to Cleopatra VII, she is one of the most or perhaps the most collectible woman in the numismatic world.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
    +VGO.DVCKS likes this.
  12. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member


    - Broucheion
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