Chopmarked Trade Dollar

Okay, I debated about whether or not to post this, as I'm quite sure there will be plenty with negative comments. However, in the interest of what is almost certainly the minority (and also for those not familiar with this topic at all), here we go...

I recently purchased a chopmarked 1874 CC U.S. Trade Dollar. I find the subject of chop marks fascinating and have great interest in learning more about this practice as well as what the individual chops on my coin mean.

To me, chop marks on coins give a serious indication and direct sign from the past of some of the history between countries and the manner in which the coins were used. I will most likely pursue my interest in chop marked coins and possibly acquire more examples in the future.

I purchased the Chopmarks book by F.M. Rose. I've made it about half way through the book so far and find it to be quite interesting. If anybody else cares to share sources regarding chop marks, please feel free. I'm interested in all aspects, both general and the actual interpretation of the characters.

Now, to show my coin off. I really purchased this coin for the reverse. The obverse is quite rough. My guess is that the texture is from a stone or similar item that the coin was placed on when the people placing the chopmarks on the reverse were hammering away at the coin. I do really like the one dark chopmark on the obverse however. I also see indications of at least two other chopmarks and possibly some test marks on the obverse as well.

On the reverse, well, you can see for yourself. I've been able to count at least 20 individual chop marks here. Most are nice and bold and easily seen. The mass of chops in the center are definitely tangled together, but with the coin in hand, it is quite possible to make many of them out.

A couple of other things I enjoy about this coin...most of the text is extremely sharp and readable still. Also, the date and CC mint mark are very much whole, sharp and unchopped which is nice.

 

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I'm with you, that is one cool coin!

 

I like it I love counter stamped coins, I have a Cartwheel 2p that has been Counter stamped and am trying to find out why LOL Do you know what the Chops mean? or when they were done :smile

De Orc :kewl:

 

Nice coin, Tcore. :thumb:

Charlie

 

I'm with what GD has said on this one. There is no doubt that the chops are rather unusually large, and besides,the basic coin looks a bit too pasty for my liking. maybe the marks the OP thought to be caused by striking is actually pock marks caused by casting. I can't be sure from the image, but i'm certainly suspicious of that coin.

I love chopped, countermarked and counterstamped coinages and tokens. Unravelling the history behind them can be very intriguing (and VERY frustrating at times). Sadly, when it comes to the ones I have, i've got more history to unravel than i've managed to unravel so far.

For example....is this just an unfortunate placing of the `hand' counterstruck on the jeton (obverse).....or is it a political statement

Probably just a chance positioning given that it also appears on the reverse. After a few years of looking and asking i've still no idea what it actually signifies, why or when it was counterstamped on that particular jeton.

http://omnicoin.com/coins/910626.jpg

 

LOL Ian I realy like that one but as you say the question remains

De Orc

 

Well, here's what I know...

My coin is slabbed as being genuine by NCS. I'm not saying that that's the end all, be all, but gives me quite a bit of confidence. Also, I bought it in a major, reputable coin auction. The bidding on it was quite hot!

In person, the colors of the coin appear a bit different. In some lighting situations, the chop marks appear darker, as seen in the picture. In other light, the chop marks appear to be nearly the same color as the coin. Also, the whole color of the coin in the picture appears washed out. It is not that way in person.

From what I have learned about chop marks thus far, here's what I can tell you. Chop marks varied greatly. They varied between time periods as well as between regions within those time periods. In Rose's book, he says that the size and style of chop marks was often a fad. At some periods of time and locations, it was "in" to put small chop marks on coins (probably a quarter of the size of those on my coin). During other periods, it was fashionable to put big, bold chops on coins (as mine has). Rose has many examples of both in his book.

I have seen many variations of chop marks myself. Many are different than those on my coin and many are similar.

I have included here five pictures from major auctions that are of trade dollars with chop marks very similar to mine in style, size and appearance. All five of these examples are slabbed by NCS, PCGS or ANACS as well.

Just something to ponder and thanks for all the comments so far!

 

I too have a copy of Rose's booklet and have been actively using it now for about six years. It's a good resource, but it does have it's limitations and is far from being the `be all and end all'. Indeed, very few of the chop marks on the coins I have are actually recorded in the book.

You are of course correct that chop marks varied in size. Your coins seem to be typical of the coin in figure 6. on page 5 of `Rose'. I probably would not have thought much about your coin if it hadn't appeared so pasty. From the photo, the chops still look a bit like they were all done at the same time and to be honest, if I saw another like that i'd still be suspicious.
I can accept what you say concerning the coin looking different in the flesh.

I've never heard of NCS. Is it the same kind of level of expertise as ACG? Or in keeping with NGC / PCGS/ ANACS?

Here's an example of a couple I can't `suss' satisfactorily.

On the first (1818 mexican), I think the obverse are counterstamps as opposed to the chinese `5' and rosette. If you compare the rosette on mine to the rosette that appears on your 1876 trade dollaar, yours has seven circles mine however has six. The reverse has two chops directly under the shield at the rim which create obvious effect on the date (obverse).

http://omnicoin.com/coins/911614.jpg

On the second (1869 mexican) the obverse shows an inked chop top left field. The reverse shows a raised chop type just above the eagles head. Miniscule in comparison to those on your original coin.

http://omnicoin.com/coins/911615.jpg

 

Ian, NCS (Numismatic Conservation Services) is a sister company of NGC and can be found here. NGC does not certify chopmarked coins, so if one wants to have them certified by this company, you send them to NCS.

In his book, Rose indicates that for the most part, around the time that U.S. Trade Dollars were in use in China that larger chopmarks were in style. So, I find it interesting when I see a U.S. Trade Dollar with smaller chop marks. Maybe those people just weren't hip and a little behind the times. :kewl:

Also, I'm really happy to be discussing chopmarked coins with you all here on Coin Talk as it is a topic that has rarely come up here. Feel free to post any coins you have with chop marks!

 

It's also an indicator of where they circulated. As far as I know, the territories controlled by various warlords just weren't `hip' at all.

The subject of `chops' comes up relatively frequently here. I'm pretty sure i've shown this one before. Note the bankers mark on his cheek:

 

I meant as opposed to "normal" topics such as Morgans or Bust Halves. ...which come up about every day (I'm not complaining though).

Ian, nice coin by the way! Have you figured out what exactly the symbol means?

 

The second image is an 1884 Yen lightly chopped on both sides.
The third image is an 1886 Yen two chops obverse only (one is a swastika)
The fourth is an 1891 Yen one chop obverse (like a K)
The fifth is a heavily chopped and test marked Yen dated 1893

 

Actually, we get far more posts concerning chop marks than we do concerning Morgans or Bust Half dollars here in the World and Ancients corner of the universe. Not being `US cointalk' inclined, I stick to what you guys call `the darkside' even though i've got some US coins to die for

I appear to have boobed when adding more images and text to my original post. Looks like it didn't `edit' but added the edited post too. Perhaps some kind considerate moderator would remove the surplus post ...Doug?

Did you see the Japanese Yens I added BTW?.........and no, i haven't a clue what the mark is other than it's definitely been made by some banker in the far east.

 

Yes, very nice and interesting coins Ian. So, is there any particular manner in which you collect chopmarked coins? e.g. You're trying to put together a type set of Yen, etc.

 

I'd like to say that there's method in my madness with regards to chop marked coins.......but i'm too honest. They've just appealed to me at the time they passed under my nose. No more no less. Mind you I do have a habit of collecting the eclectic and travelling off the beaten track as far as numismatics is concerned .

Ian

 

And here is another nicely choped lOL

De Orc :goof:

 

Nice......but have you tried to get rid of the green stuff at all?

 

No Ian I havn't, woudnt know where to start and woudnt want to damage the coin, do you have any suggestions??

De Orc