Chop mark on a silver coin

in the early years, oriental people doing business with each other. in order to avoid receiving fake silver coin. chop mark is frequently adopted. and the people like it. it is truly a silver coin. do you have one?.

 

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I thought about putting together a collection of various chops and countermarks for a certain type, but I haven't come across much, and I probably would not pay much unless it was a particularly presentable example. I think it would be an interesting string on my website, but that's about it.

I've seen some ugly chops out there.

 

I'm with GDJMSP on this one, but it has to be pointed out that there are chopmarks, and there are countermarks, which are a whole different story.

Chopmarks are privately applied punchmarks to show that a particular merchant has determined that the coin is "good" silver (usually) or gold (occasionally). They are almost always crude, and placed on the coin in a random position. 19th Century Asian merchants were so trusting of each other that they frequently ignored prior chops and added their own after independently verifying the coin's allloy and weight. I have seen Japanese yen and Chinese Yuan so heavily chopped that it is difficult or impossible to date the host coin, or even make out design details that vary by variety.

Countermarks are also punched into the coins, but they differ in purpose and source, and generally in method of application. They are applied by governments, or government wannabes - that is revolutionaries or invaders. Their purpose is not so much to verify the metallic content and value, but to authorize - or prohibit - circulation as money in a particular area.

Often, but not universally, they are more detailed and intricate than the typical chop, and they are frequently placed in the same general location on each coin. For example, when the Japanese (temporarily) demonitized their silver yen and trade dollar coins, the character "Gin" or "silver" was stamped on each coin in a circle. The main mint at Osaka stamped the reverse to the left of the "yen" or "silver for trade" legend, and the Tokyo Branch Mint placed the same stamp on the right.

Personally, while I consider chops as damage, I fully concur with the Krause treatment of countermarks as creating a different coin, whether for a different country, or just as a variety of the host coin.

 

I have noticed, though, that Krause often only grades many countermarked examples as high as VF. Is it that they do consider that countermarking, where it does create a new coin, is also considered damage as well, and therefore unable to reach XF or UNC grades?

 

At least in the case of the Gin countermarked yen and trade dollar coins, Krause lists them up to Unc without the mark and XF with, but I think that's because they are incredibly rare in Unc condition.

 

When you grade counterstamped coinage, it is the quality and condition of the actual counterstamp that is graded.

That is, you can have (for example) a Spanish colonial 8 reales piece with the George III bust counterstamped on it. The host coin might be flat as a pancake, but if the actual counterstamp is EF, then the coin is EF.

Not so with chop marks.

I tend to think the same as GD and Roy, but each to their own with chop marks. I bought a few chopped coins in fascination and to study the chops first hand. It is a collecting field in its own right and while one or two chops on a coin is generally accepted as making the host `interesting' any more tends to render the coin `damaged' to the vast majority of the numismatic community.

Having said that a good few years ago I turned down the offer of a Maria Theresia thaler that was absolutely crawling with chop marks both sides. The original coin was barely recognisable in consequence. In hindsight, I wish I had taken it, as it probably had nigh on every chop mark known on it!

If you ever want to know more concerning chops etcetera, there's a neat booklet by F.M. Rose entitled `Chopmarks' (ISBN1-889172-13-8). There may be others out there, but that's one I know of and can recommend. It only cost me $10 a couple of years back, and if you have difficulty getting hold of it, I think (?) I know someone who might still have it in stock.

Ian

 

Oh, I completely agree that the chop is damage and the counter is different. In both cases, I would like to find a few examples of two reales for my website - I think they both sort of prove a similar point. I just know that most counterstamped two reales go for large premiums, and I guess I'm just not willing to pay that much. Then there's chops, which can be easily found on eight reales, but not so much on two.

They would be interesting, all the same - and I would love to post up their images. I just don't know that I would particularly enjoy them in my collection, so much.

 

Where I live I don't get to see many 2 reales pieces in the first place.

I can honestly say that (apart from in books) I have only once seen a 2 reales coin bearing a counterstamp. I bought it! (Azores). I've never once seen a 2 reales with chop marks on it, but they must be out there. Just not with my name on them.

Thank heavens i'm not drawn to collecting either, otherwise my work wouold really be cut out for me....no wait a minute.....cut coinage is something else again .

 

I meant to add that I once saw a slabbed US trade dollar that had a chop mark on either side. If these marks hadn't been there it would most definitely be categorised here in the UK as Brilliant Uncirculated. However, to my mind the fact that it had these marks on it proved beyond any reasonable doubt that it had indeed circulated.

So how it could be slabbed MS65 (by PCGS as I recall) was beyond my ability to fathom. I can't recall what it sold for, but it was in the `scary' range.

Ian

 

Hello Satootoko and the rest

The most common one that Roy and I would know is the instance of Japanese 1 yen coins that circulated in China. You must understand, by taking such coins and putting ugly chopmarks on them, this means that these are taken as bullion values and had zero apperication value on the art level.

The question is, how should they be valued? Maybe you can "calculate" the amount of 'damage' percentage wise and put it up against the real value of the coin.

Of course they might be countermarks that might be valuable. But if you know some of the ridicious coins in the world, such as the Australian holey dump, these coins in some crude defination a hole made in the Spanish coins *ouch!!!* and with that removed circular coin, some "countermarks" are made.

Why are those valuable? Because it's official?

I am not too keen in crediting chopmarks are totally worthless though. Perhaps with some detailed studies of who chopmarked them, it might be worth a bit more...

 

Ian garnered my interest with fourees and then I saw that it may pretain to this thread as well so I thought this might be of interest to those like me who are weak on the counterfeit issue.

The below of course is posted by me but not written by I.
"Fourees
Coins have been counterfeited since the invention of coinage. Before coinage, pre-coin precious metal ingots were counterfeited as well. In ancient times, forgers typically counterfeited coins by plating a base metal core with a precious metal exterior, since the value of coins was tied to the value of their metallic content.

Numismatists call ancient plated counterfeits fourees, which is a term derived from the French word for "filled" or "stuffed." The word "fouree" has various alternate spellings, including "fourée," "fourree," "fourrée," "fourre," "fourrée," and "foure." Less frequently the Latin term "subaerati" is used.

The existence of fourees is the reason that many ancient coins have test cuts or banker's marks in them. To make sure coins received were made of good metal, people in ancient times would sometimes slash a coin with a chisel or designed punch to reveal the metal under the surface.

Counterfeiting was a serious crime in ancient times, as it has been through most of history. In ancient Greece and Rome, it was typically punishable by death, though if an aristocrat were caught he might have merely been exiled, according to Ken Peters' 2002 book The Counterfeit Coin Story. Later, in Europe during the Middle Ages, various punishments for counterfeiters were used. If you were lucky, you could have had your hand cut off, you ear cut off, your testicles cut off, or been blinded. Or you could have been executed or first tortured then executed, by hanging, beheading, strangling, drowning, boiling in hot oil, having molten lead pored down your throat, drawing and quartering, or breaking on the wheel."

 

chop

chop mark or chop stick. oriental people loves it.

 

and chop suey..mmmm
Coolest chopmark website EVER!
http://www.sycee-on-line.com/Chopmarked_coins.htm

 

THere is a book by Rose about chopmarks

 

chop mark on japanese silver yen

my father gave me 8 japanese silven dragon yen. all with chop mark. i hate those chop mark. but what can i do. i loved chinese and japanese silver dragon yen.

 

You can always send them to the metal refinery for bullions...

 

Hello,
I have a coin from Mexico, I think from the 1800's with Mexican designed chop marks. Is this common??

 

Mexican silver circulated in the Far East during the "chopmark era" but I've never heard of Mexican chop marks as such. There were a few countermarks during some of the revolutions, however. Can you post a picture?

 

Mexico chop marks?????

Hello,
I pulled it out and it is dated 1873, 25 centavos. Looks like two different cap and ray designs and maybe a cross????