changing TPG standards - US Gold

Have you noted any changes in grading standards of pre-1933 US Gold coins ? Has the high price of gold had any impact ?

I'm thinking about NGC and PCGS particularly.

Any thoughts / recent experiences ?

 

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Great post Doug. I would just like to add a couple of points, we all know TPGing is dependent on collectors sending in coins for their (human, subjective) graders to review. The collector who submits their coins must consider, #1. Humans make mistakes, and #2. A happy satisified submitter is a repeat customer, the TPGs know this and do what is 'necessary' for (LARGE LOT) repeat customers.

Additionally, here is an excerpt from a thread I'd posted a couple of years ago, but was locked for some reason.

It quotes David Hall...
But back to coins, When David Hall wrote this famous letter in 1988 and I read it albeit some time afterwards. I was dumbfounded. Surly some could see he was leading lambs to slaughter and he was holding the knife behind his back.

"The Word is Out!!!
We've had a ten year honeymoon with the coin buying public, but we've betrayed their trust, and the word is out. The word is out in the financial planning community; in the hard money circuit; and to the coin investing public. Coin dealers are rip-off artists; the rare coin market is a trap.
For ten years, we've sold coins to the coin buying public as MS-65, only to tell them that the grading standards had changed and their coins graded MS-63 when it was time for them to sell.
For ten years, we've told them that rare coin prices have gone up and up and up and up, only to tell them that the buyers bidding those higher prices were very fussy, very selective, sight-seen buyers who bought only the coins that they liked and not the coins that the public owned.
For five years, we've supplied the telemarketers who have pounded the coin-buying public with Salomon Brothers fantasies while [selling them] viciously overgraded coins.
We are currently paying the consequences of the abuses of the past ten years. And frankly, we deserve it!"

David Hall, dealer and a principal in the Professional Coin Grading Service
[in a 1988 letter to coin dealers about past abuses and PCGS's new standard]

http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=12285

Take Care
Ben

 

I didn't mean to upset you but as a stock holder of CLCT (AMERITRADE) I beg to differ as their grading activities cross many lines in the hobby of collecting; sports cards, coins, etc. Their quarterly stock reports constantly mention satisfied repeat customers and the quest to keep them coming back.

I anticipated your interpretation of the letter. It's taken from Scott Travers fine book, The Coin Collectors Survival Manual. It virtually dominates Chapter 4 which discusses the different grading companies and their processes, standards, and faults.


Take Care
Ben

 

Isn't it true that PCGS was established in 1987 ?

That letter was written in 1988, one year after the founding of PCGS, and discusses things which had been going on for ten years.

Obviously, the letter does not refer to activities of PCGS, but rather prior activities.

In fact, it seems to be an argument for why PCGS is a good idea. Not surprising, considering the author.

What would be surprising (shocking, actually) is for Hall to write a letter like that describing PCGS activities.

PS Yes Bone, it is a very good book. Highly recommended.

 

That seems like a very reasonable statement for any business to make.

 

Interesting to note the next sentence :

"David Hall is a marketing genius, a trailblazing pioneer - and, in a positive sense, a brilliant revolutionary."

 

Oh, the whole chapter (book) is eye-opening. I would suggest every (new or old) collector who plans on using a TPG to read and understand the implications...

 

Substitue "PQ" for "MS-65" and "low-for-the-grade" for "MS-63" and "30" for "ten", and this statement is still very much true today, IMHO.

 

Nope, Feb 1986. It's a minor point though.

 

Cool, I didn't want to either

Doug, at one time I almost brought in, I almost hitched onto the ANACS bandwagon and then I caught a bit of information on the wind or the wire I'm not sure which but it was there. That word was that a certain TPG company owner had personally stooped to walking a special order thru by their own admission. Then after some research I discovered the same owner is also a coin dealer and only sells products which are processed by their own company. Not a bad Idea if you're Lee Iacocca or Steve Jobs but when you are the CEO/Owner of a company which produces an objective service that will drastically increases the value of the coin I think it smacks of corruption and abuse. I seem to recall a certain TPG which did the same thing and a large lawsuit ensued which swept up a couple of my friends so I'll choose my words carefully.

When you can take an $18.00 (RedBook Grade) silver half dollar and with a couple of pieces of plastic and a little plastic sticker you can transform that coin into a several hundred dollar piece with an imaginary pedigree as a marketing ploy.

We've both seen TPG'd coins which appear to have been given the benefit of the doubt (grade wise) and then we've seen coins which are oughtright 'Market Graded' and noplace close to accurately graded. Graders are human and various standards are constantly being rewritten. Believe me, anyone can be accepted at any of the big four TPG Co's as an apprentice grader and from there it's all politics. Or so I've been told by those who've applied. On a lark I applied for a TPG Grader job a few months ago and was accepted, now that's a laugh... I've since withdrawn my application.

Perhaps one day I'll begin looking at Coin TPGs with optimism but for now until there is regulation my (and I think pretty good) collection will remain virtually raw and self-graded by my standards.

As you know there aren't many collections which have never seen the plastic hands of a TPG, but they're there and have remained locked away in attics or basements in Kansas, Oklahoma, or Idaho. These collections will eventually be found and subsequently labled as a hoard. I am dismayed at the thought...

Take Care
Ben

 

Cool! Did you get through the grading test that they give? Do you mind telling what Co. it was?

Speedy

 

Sorry, I didn't get back earlier but I had to drive my daughter to school. I contacted (not using my real name of course, )Heritage earlier this year and asked if there were any openings for various (coins,/sports cards) apprentice grading positions. They were interested but that's as far as I got since being originally from Tx and moving to the Dallas area wasn't in my cards...

Take care
Ben

 

Ah....well then that is alittle different.....
I also have emailed Heritage about a job ( useing my real name ) and they were nice enough to be interested...My hold up was TX.
I hear that the grading test that the Grading Co's give are pretty hard.

Speedy

 

Speedy, I really mean this and say it with the utmost respect and admiration. "The future is yours and in doing so it would benefit the entire hobby. Don't sell yourself short, you would be an excellent and world renowned coin grader with the where-with-all to write numismatic books which would sell by the millions."

If I was your age again and had made different choices perhaps I could have had this future but for better or worse I'm at where I'm at and can live with that. But son, you're on the launch pad...

Good Luck Buddy
Ben

 

Yes Doug, thanks for addressing one aspect/point of my post. I've known about the 'Presidential Review' process and the dollars it costs for such an action to occur but I wasn't referring to this offered process which came later, it was another time when an owner personally walked into the 'grading room?' and instructed his graders to process an order or perform a test while he watched.

However, what are your thoughts about dealing in relatively common coins when you basically own the company which produces the final product a product which is an expensive encapsulated, graded, and attributed expensive coin. In an old line of work I worked closely with (base contracting office in the 80's and 90's, not just guarding planes, LOL) this practice was frowned upon because of the possible obvious conflict of interest and both entities were separated.

In order to put this (Business Mgt vs President) thing into perspective one has to remember that Bill Gates relinquished the helm of Microsoft (MSFT) for a period of time (When MSFT was getting slammed in the courts) yet he still obviously pulled Steve Ballmer's strings.

I don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on this TPG thing and that's okay for this is America and freedom of choice is one of benefits. In closing, I seem to recall a certain slabbed & graded MS-70 Buffalo which had marks and or fingerprints all over it. This coin was being offered for sale at one point by the President/Founder/CEO of the TPG that did the grading, which they also owned.

Take Care Buddy
Ben