cac stickers can help a coin when selling

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by potty dollar 1878, Feb 16, 2021.

  1. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    There are only three MS65 1920 PCGS saints.
    One is very recent & I think it was a crossover. I've not seen it yet.
    The other is the Eliasberg specimen in MidSouth's set.
    The last one went dark (probably PEC???)

    Everybody basically has to choose a MS64
    None are extremely expensive and the pop is large enough so everyone can have one.
    That puts us all on about equal footing. Billionaires & time-clock punchers.
    The only one out of 64 coins in a full saint set that is like this.

    Now throw in + & CAC and watch what happens.
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  3. fiddlehead

    fiddlehead Well-Known Member

    Just an ordinary consumer/collector here. Never got the kind of experience others have had, in part because I have never been able to get to shows. So, with that caveat, I do have a perspective on CAC. I mostly collect older, somewhat rare coins. Pre-civil war coins, most graded higher VF to lower AU. With old, circulated coins - pieces that vary a lot in terms of quality within grades, CAC has been very useful to me. About 60% of what I own have stickers and about half of those I sent in myself. I do have one coin, a reasonably valuable one that I know failed to CAC as an XF40 but did CAC as a VF35. It's a lovely coin with quite a lot of honest circulation and I don't think it's ever been messed with. I tend to agree that it is an A/B 35 but would have been a C/D as a 40.

    Among circulated coins, by and large CAC seems to favor coins with original surfaces This has been confirmed time and again by the coins I sent in that were stickered. Usually they are better looking, but not always. Sometimes it surprises me, but then original surfaces are not always better looking. I have a few that I was surprised they didn't sticker and a few I was surprised they did - but mostly I see consistency there. So .... Just the point that among older circulated coins CAC stickers may be more relevant and helpful than in discerning the differences between MS63, 64 or 65 more common coins. With old circulated coins there may be more opportunity for quality variation within a grade. For me, although I know it has an impact on marketability, it's less interesting when considering the differences within MS grades. I can tell you this - from time to time I've bought something that fit into my collection(s) at what I thought was a great price (i.e. well below the price guides and auction records), sent it to CAC and got a sticker. That, friends is a little like hitting the lottery!
  4. fiddlehead

    fiddlehead Well-Known Member

    That is bizarre. I live in New England. I have family in Florida. I hold my breath every time I mail anything to Florida or expect something from there. From my experience it's the worst mail service in the country. But YMMV.
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  5. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I have lived in Florida for 13 and a half years and never had a problem. Maybe there are problems in south Florida, but where I am.
    potty dollar 1878 likes this.
  6. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    That is not quite correct. gold.
  7. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    It’s really just an absurd premise anyways for someone to call people idiots and say that something is the high end of the grade. It shouldn’t be shocking to anyone that the best of the grade brings more money
  8. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    I was trying to be nice, was hard. very hard.
  9. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 65 years Supporter

    If it's a nice coin I surely wouldn't pooh-pooh it. If it were an auction coin I was interested in I'd probably be glad it didn't have a sticker since it would probably drive away some other potential bidders.
  10. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
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  11. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    The Whitman Show in Baltimore is probably pretty close for you. But FUN should also be on your to-goto list. :D
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  12. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    BTW....if any experts in alot of the obscure coins that John Alabanese mentioned price-wise wants to chime in as to how those coins are quoted today (12 years later), feel free. Should be interesting....I think most of the quoted prices probably ran up HIGHER for a few years after the interview, but have been weak the last 5-6 years.

    So no idea net-net if they are higher/lower than mentioned in the interview.
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  13. 1865King

    1865King Well-Known Member

    I didn't read every reply to the questions about CAC. However, here is my opinion on CAC.

    First buyer beware there are counterfeit CAC stickers out there. Sometimes they're on counterfeit slabs.

    I don't assume a coin without a CAC is worth less than one with it. I have passed up many coins with a CAC sticker to buy one without a sticker. The reason I passed on those coins with a CAC sticker is that the strike wasn't great, ugly toning, finger prints and other very basic reasons. The same reasons I would have passed on many coins without a sticker. Also there are a lot of coins sitting in collections that people can't be bothered to send out to CAC.

    A common coin with a CAC sticker who cares. An extremely rare coin with a CAC sticker on it again who cares. A CAC sticker on a 1794 or a 1804 silver dollar really! Think about it folks.

    CAC is being hyped by a lot of dealers right now as the only coins worth buying. It's a marketing tool nothing more. Is a CAC sticker indicating a high end coin for the grade given sometimes Yes sometimes No. From what I understand a CAC sticker only means that someone other than a grading service has looked at the coin and they agree with the grade on the slab. Bottom line buy the coin not the sticker or the plastic.

    PCGS, NGC & CAC have done more to help the hobby than anything done in the last 100 years. However, just to assume a coin with a CAC sticker is better than one without a sticker is wrong.
  14. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    What is CAC's opinion on toning -- acceptable (adds to quality/grade) or a negative ?

    Am I correct that DECADES ago toning was considered in a ruined coin ?
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  15. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Toned coins get stickers all the time
  16. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    I don't encounter any hobbyist that does not concur with buy the coin, not the holder.

    I do think generalizing the CAC designation is no more and no less in quality and value than a non-CAC coin is a correct evaluation.

    If CAC was a me too 3PG, maybe that would hold as an objective evaluation.

    A person passes on a coin with a CAC because a non-CAC was a better strike, or did not have fingerprints, the toning color was on a personal level of acceptance., etc. Sure. My thought would be that the non-CAC coin was not submitted yet, or submitted and was considered a D , and/or the person buying the non-CAC coin was not as familiar with the series to the level of CAC evaluation, and assumes the reason for the non-CAC coin must be correct, because the CAC "equal" coin that was viewed is "superior". Is it? Or, was it less than accurately graded by the 3PG to start with. Maybe it is a Proof, and incorrectly identified (in certain series that happens a lot with 3PGs). Or, it was a very early strike and is superior and exceeds the average curve.
    CAC is not indicating superiority. It is stating the coin that received a CAC designation is, in opinion, a fair and agreed to designation. No more, no less.

    Do mistakes happen?of course. Always. When I encounter a person that has a coin with such problems as listed....fingerprints, less than acceptable strike, ugly toning, etc., I always always ask if the person discussed the coin with CAC. the majority reply is no. Why not? CAC does in fact make a market and buys back coins that it evaluated as meeting the criteria for green or gold. Mistakes....actual mistakes and not I think you think evaluation....are corrected by CAC, and the person would be made whole.

    Do the 3PGs make a market for their own evaluations by buying their graded coins back? I do not mean mistake coins. I mean coins that meet the criteria of the hobby between a 50 and 63, or a 40 and a 50.

    I would also mention that a finger print is not always a fingerprint, and a non-CAC coin that appears superior to the CAC coin may not be....because it was tooled, or it was cleaned (not as easy to detect as many opine that it is), or was doctored.

    Read the book, know the series, view a 1,000 examples of the coin, know the good and the bad...toning, cleaning methods, subtle enhancements and how to detect.

    Then compare the difference between the non-CAC 3PG coins and the CAC coins.

    I do not know the point of the 1794 or 1804 CAC designation, but assume the intent is how can anybody know, because of the age.

    Fair point. My reply would well versed is the person declaring the opinion to be able to detect enhancement, tooling, counterfeit, expert color tinkering, etc., before dismissing any 3PG or 4PG evaluation, and how many of the coin/series has the person personally evaluated?

    My opinion, yes, but I am comfortable with my opinion. If I don't know, I don' know. I then ask the person(s) that have a heck of a lot more experience than me. Personal like and dislike is what makes any market function. But, I always remind myself in such pursuits, information is King. Good information is God.
  17. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Well-Known Member

    No comment.
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  18. Phil's Coins

    Phil's Coins Well-Known Member

    Very true. The tpg's are probably aware of this and do nothing because they want the business. JMO
    Stay Safe
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  19. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    It's probably VERY rarely done. The coin in question (I forgot to mention) was an ultra-rare Saint-Gaudens 1927-D. This is the only time I've read about asking for/seeking a downgrade.

    I believe the coin went from an MS-66 to an MS-65+ CAC.
    There are so few buyers for a coin like that (~ $1.5 MM) that it's hard to believe someone went to those level of shenanigans since any potential future buyer is going to be an expert in the field (or have his/her experts standing nearby).
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  20. Phil's Coins

    Phil's Coins Well-Known Member

    I think it boils down to a simple word: GREED. JMO
    Stay safe.
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  21. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    I don't think greed entered into the equation here, Phil. I think the guy just had a hard-on for CAC and was willing to have a lower grade with CAC than a higher grade without CAC.

    I don't even think he was prepping it for sale, he just wanted the 1927-D that he owned to have a CAC sticker.

    Eccentric rich guys......:D
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