Hello I've been thinkng of buying several flying eagle pennies, but the grading seems to be biting me for these coins. They seem to be more difficult than others to find in decent shape. Does this coin seem to be cleaned? How would you grade it?
I would have cleaned the coin in the mid-70's as well. I'm not sure why all cleaning is bad. If your just removing dirt from the coin, without polishing it, what would be wrong. If this was any other kind of antique, you would expect to clean it. Especially silver. Ruben
Cleaning destroys the patina and the mint surfaces of a coin. Even light cleaning does some damage. Conserving a damaged coin is something completely different than cleaning. Cleaning will always lower the grade of a coin and only should be done if there is active corrosion or pvc. Cleaning is also accepted if it was done on a crusty dug coin. Cleaning, simply don't try it. If you need to conserve a coin, get a professional to conserve it and encapsulate it to prevent further damage. Coin graders know when a coin has been altered and know every trick in the book, you will not fool anyone.
Cleaned or not cleaned. So what? If your buying a coin for your own collection, it's like buying anything else. It is for you, not others. There are always people that will make comments about something you have regarless of what it is. Buy a car, mine is better, buy a boat, mine is bigger, buy a coin and mine wasn't cleaned, buy the Sears Tower, mine is taller, etc. Never let others make your choises based on what they think. Do what you like and buy what you like. That Flying Eagle Cent looks just great to me and I wish I had one like it in my collection. I would buy any coin if I liked it, cleaned or not. This always reminds me of the comments I get on my old cars where some one will always say something like Oh, look that's the wrong color heater hose. I slam the hood and walk away. It's mine.
Well, the detail of that particular coin is very eye popping. It's hard to find flying eagles with all the feathers showing in the breast. But if the coin is cleaned, I'm not interested in paying mint prices for the coin. I want to pay market value or less. Ruben
There isn't anything wrong with buying a cleaned coin provided (1) you aren't concerned about resale value [for you or your heirs], (2) know it is cleaned when you buy it, and (3) pay a price with an appropriate discount for the cleaning. Everything is collectible: cleaned coins, holed coins, uncirculated coins, circulated coins, damaged coins, jewelry coins, etc... But not everything is valuable. As long as you know the difference and it doesn't bother you, go for it! I own several cleaned silver coins that I'm happy with. I know they might never be worth more than bullion value, but that's about all I paid to begin with.
But thats the trick, isn't it. How do you value a coin like that flying eagle. I would say the positives of the coin, the clear detail of the eagles chest feathers and leaves, outweigh the negitives. But whats the real market value? I just got a VF20 1858 FE penny in the mail from Halan J Berk. It cost me $40.00. Its a dark greyish coin and I can hardly see the details without my magnifying glass because of the tone. Likewise I got a 1922 Peace Dollar MS63 which is slabbed by PCGS (although it was SUPPOSED TO BE SLABBED MY NCG). It has some gum like foriegn matter on the front and back. I wouldn't have purchased this coin if I saw it in person. But was everyone afrain to take a QTIP to the with a little bit of Alcohol it clean the gum residue off? BTW - that coin came from the fastcoins link below. Ok - you have a 1892S Morgan with MS 64 details and has been dipped. Now whats its value? Ruben
Anyway, I can see why so many of these flying eagles are cleaned. I just got one which just has such little eye apeal despite being in decent condition (VF20) Ruben
Ruben, It is a failure of the hobby [in my opinion] not to have encouraged a market for cleaned coins at discounted prices instead of treating them as numismatically worthless. Many third party grading companies won't even slab them as "cleaned." Some dealers, such as Harlan Berk, sell raw cleaned coins, listed as such. So maybe an estimate can be derived from the pricing policies used there. There is no direct answer to your questions because there is no robust market for cleaned coins. Everyone has to decide for themselves what an adequate discount is. I've purchased a few cleaned Morgan and Peace dollars for prices close enough to bullion value to make them worth owning -- to me, but perhaps not to someone else. In the absence of an active market in cleaned coins, it becomes a matter of personal preference and judgement.
Older coins, especially from the mid 1800s and before were commonly cleaned by collectors. Virtually any grader will slab a cleaned coin prior to the 1850s just as long as it wasn't harshly cleaned. Cleaning was a commonly accepted practice in those days. Virtually all silver coins pre 1850 have been cleaned. Coins at various museums were routinely dipped and even polished. There have been stories of museum curators drinking out of the wrong cup while they were up late cleaning coins with potassium cyanide. Flying Eagle cents are on the cusp on that era and most have been cleaned at one point or another in their history. There is a difference of being lightly cleaned and retoning naturally over the course of 100 years and being scoured with a brass brush, whizzed and retoned in an oven. Older and rarer coins have a much more relaxed grading scale because there was no such thing as a ms70 in those days. Coins were also much more utilitarian compared to today. Coins were the most common form of currency and were worth much more than today. Factory workers and coal miners made less than a dollar a day's wages. Many young numismaticists don't appreciate just how much $5 was in the 19th century. It would take several months of saving to get a $20 double eagle. US currency had a lot of buying power and typically coin collecting was reserved for the very rich. Coin collections were typically much smaller as well. This means that individual coins got more attention. There wasn't any such thing as non reacting, protective holders until the late 20th century. 3rd party grading and encapsulating started only about 20 years ago. The vast majority of gold and silver coins were melted. It is not uncommon for a modern collector to have 50,000 or more coins but it was unheard of in those days. I would not mind having this Flying Eagle in my collection. It has very strong details and isn't dinged or scratched up. I think when PCGS runs out high grade FE cents to grade, they will consider grading problem coins. I believe there are a couple of graders that will still net grade problem coins.
(going along with the previous post) Part of it is that there weren't so many coins to collect in 1850, and there wasn't as much documentation about varieties, etc. Also, at certain times, coin circulation was almost non-existent with so many people hoarding coins, etc. Top it off (as was said) in 1850 a dollar was about a day's wage and while I'd like to collect $200-$300 single coins all day long (a day's wage for me), I think carefully before dropping that much. Coin collecting is ever expanding. It's like the subject of history... there isn't less being written than there used to be. Poor students and coin collectors 1,000 years from now
Personally - I prefer that the coins in my collection not be cleaned. But I see nothing at all wrong with a person having cleaned coins in their collection as long as they know it. I also see nothing wrong with a seller selling cleaned coins - as long as they say so in the description or label it as such. What I do have a problem with is someone selling a cleaned coin and NOT describing it as such. There are just to many who cannot recognize a cleaned coin when they see one. And they don't deserve to be taken advantage of just because they can't.
In a perfect world.. Unfortunately there will be sellers that aren't completely forthcoming with their product. Any collector worth their salt should be able to identify an altered coin. If you are unsure about a coin, do not bid. It's that simple. If a deal appears too good to be true, it probably is. Nobody ever finds gold in "unsearched roman" lots and people don't really find key dates in "Unsearched Wheaties or Indians." Even be skeptical about 'bank rolled' coins. Many dealers have access to coin rolling machines. It's funny when they sell "Unsearched Rolls" and the coins are in modern coin wrappers. There are rare occasions where you will find a decent dealer on eBay, but most of them are scam artists selling off their cherrypicking rejects. Buyer Beware.
