"Budget" Lifetime Caesar

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by medoraman, Jun 3, 2024.

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  1. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I know the coin market can be confusing but I am still scratching my head about the NN auction yesterday. I won this QUITE a bit over what I considered a lowball bid:

    [​IMG]
    JULIUS CAESAR. Denarius (44 BC). Rome. P. Sepullius Macer, moneyer. Lifetime issue.

    Obv: CAESAR IMP.
    Wreathed head right; star to left.
    Rev: P SEPVLLIVS MACER.
    Venus standing left, holding victoriola and sceptre.

    Crawford 480/5a; CRI 106.

    Condition: Near very fine.

    Weight: 3.67 g.
    Diameter: 20 mm.

    I know the schmutz on the face not optimal, but otherwise pretty nice shape I thought. Does this seem like a 775 Euro coin?

    Other pickups were a couple of interesting group lots:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    medoraman, Jun 3, 2024
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    That's actually pretty nice for a "budget" lifetime Caesar.

    You paid several hundred less, after conversion, than I paid this sucker.

    [​IMG]
    Julius Caesar (February-March 44 B.C)
    AR Denarius
    Lifetime Issue
    O: Wreathed head of Caesar right; CAESAR downward to right, DICT PERPETVO upward to left.
    R: Venus Victrix standing left, holding Victory in outstretched right hand and vertical scepter in left; L • BVC[A] downwards to right. L. Aemilius Buca, moneyer.
    Rome Mint
    3.92g
    17mm
    Crawford 480/8; Alföldi Type XIV, 62–3, 67, and 69 (A13/R22); CRI 105; Sydenham 1061; RSC 23; RBW 1683.
     
    Mat, Jun 3, 2024
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  4. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Coingratulations!

    This is a timely thread for me, as a lifetime Julius Caesar denarius is at the top of my current hit list. I've been shot down in flames in several recent auctions, and am beginning to consider that I need to compromise my standards somewhat.

    I have been after:

    • A coin struck in 44 BC, with an acceptable portrait,
    • Most or all of the name CAESAR on the flan, and
    • In Fine or better condition (though a small flan crack or banker's mark or two would have been acceptable).
    And I was hoping I could get one for $2,500 or less, but it seems that is a pipe dream, and I'm WAY behind the times. I keep getting utterly crushed at auction.

    So it's time to consider VG coins and/or coins without a full CAESAR on the flan, I suppose.

    This recent Künker example was VG-ish and had only his title, not his name, on it, so I did not bid, but now I sort of wish I had. It went for €675, and I would have considered it a very reasonable compromise coin, since I think it had pretty good eye appeal for a low grade piece.

    So... my quest continues. I'm either going to have to come up with a lot more money for my war chest, or compromise, or maybe even both.

    This time around is my second attempt at a Twelve Caesars set. I currently lack only Julius Caesar and Vitellius.

    The first time I did the Twelve Caesars was in 2011-2013. I was constrained by a <$500/coin budget at the time.

    This was the "budget lifetime Caesar" I had back then. It cost me just under that $500 threshold (maybe just a tiny bit over, after I had it slabbed).

    [​IMG]
     
    lordmarcovan, Jun 4, 2024
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  5. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    To answer your question, I think you did pretty well. I’ve seen worse than that coin with four-figure pricetags.
     
    lordmarcovan, Jun 4, 2024
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  6. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    BTW, I was looking at this one, but it’s already at $5,500. Way out of my league.
     
    lordmarcovan, Jun 4, 2024
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  7. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I was actually wondering if the ancient market had weakened since the piece I got seems vastly underpriced. I like the other two lots as well. A 5 coin group lot with 2 Judea Captas and a fairly nice Vaspasian for 220 Euro? Seemed pretty cheap but maybe I am simply not in tune with the market. I admit I haven't bought from auctions for a while now, since I had to come up with a very large, (for me), amount to put into a LLC at work to facilitate a deal this spring.

    Oh well, I got one of my whales I had been sniffing around for a while for. Next up to find a Boran and a few others. I am sure there are many other whales out there I simply don't know that I "need" yet. :)
     
    medoraman, Jun 4, 2024
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  8. Croatian Coin Collector

    Croatian Coin Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Croatian Coin Collector, Jun 5, 2024
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  9. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Saw it, thanks. It’s priced a bit beyond my desired range, and I’m rather lukewarm on that one anyway. If I were to spend more than $3,500 on a coin (something I’ve only done twice in my life), it would have to be for something I really love. I don’t love that coin, though I don’t hate it, either. It’s just… OK. Certainly not bad. But not something I’d spend $3,500+ on.

    But thanks for pointing it out. It might very well sell. Just not to me.
     
    lordmarcovan, Jun 5, 2024
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  10. edteach

    edteach Well-Known Member

    Where is a good auction sites to look for one?
     
    edteach, Jun 5, 2024
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  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I looked for years at Biddr and just typed in "Julius". Got some other hits but would let me know which JC were up for auction at those firms. I got mine at NN. They have a new auction up, but the JC portrait coin on the new auction is not lifetime.
     
    medoraman, Jun 5, 2024
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  12. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    That is what is weird to me. To me, and I know everyone is definitely different, I would prefer the coin I got over this one. That is why I thought a coin like this should be the relevant reference price for it, not what it hammered for. That was the question originally, had the ancient market changed the last 6-8 months since I had bought much. It seemed wildly inaccurate.
     
    medoraman, Jun 5, 2024
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  13. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    From my admittedly tiny would-be buyer’s viewpoint, the Ancients market has become difficult indeed. I keep coming up far short on the things I bid on.

    I might post a thread on it later, but for example, one coin (not a Julius Caesar) that I was confident on just closed earlier today. Under normal circumstances, it is a type which I believe should normally go for $200-$300.

    This one had a famous pedigree. I really wanted it, so I threw a $1,000 bid at it. That put me on top by a wide margin, well into the final hours. Then it closed for $1,300. My “stupid money” got surpassed by “even stupider money”.

    It’s starting to look like I will need to not only bid “stupid money” on the stuff I really want, but also start employing some sniper tactics (i.e., only bid at the last possible minute).
     
    lordmarcovan, Jun 5, 2024
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  14. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I can, if not understand, explain once you said the word "pedigree". Many moneyed investors have gone gaga over pedigree, believing that at some point their coins may get repatriated without one. Myself I believe if they come for the coins in mass they won't be sophisticated enough to differentiate. But, I am seen ludicrous prices for pedigrees the last 10 year, accelerating.

    I am too cheap. I have way too many coins I still want to buy than to massively overpay for a pedigree. Its fine if it has one, I have some cool old flips from the 30's to the 70s I kind of like but would not overpay just for that.
     
    medoraman, Jun 5, 2024
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  15. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Pricing in the Ancients market has always been problematic (I think). Have had arguments with a dealer/friend about this.
     
    Kentucky, Jun 5, 2024
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  16. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    This particular pedigree was from the John Quincy Adams and Descendants collection which sold in 1971. I myself am an Adams descendant, so I’m prepared to up my game to acquire a piece from the JQA collection.

    But it appears I’m going to have to up my game considerably more.

    Otherwise… yeah. I’m with you. Without the personal family connection, I’m just not going to pay multiples of a coin’s value because it has a nice pedigree. A small premium, sure. But not an exponential one.
     
    lordmarcovan, Jun 5, 2024
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  17. Croatian Coin Collector

    Croatian Coin Collector Supporter! Supporter

    What do you think of this one then?: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/numiscorner/browse?a=4660&l=5591199
     
    Croatian Coin Collector, Jun 6, 2024
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  18. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    It has some redeeming features. On the positive side, it's already slabbed (which might not matter to a lot of collectors, but that's a plus for me)- and it's in higher grade (which will probably make it expensive). On the negative side, I do not care much for the strike or centering, and I do not find it especially eye appealing (though it is not terrible).

    Overall, it is just not the one for me. At the 2,000 EUR starting price, it's already priced well above what I would be willing to pay for it. But I expect it will probably sell, and fetch a good price from someone.

    This is another case of my unwillingness to pay a four-figure price for a coin which I only have a lukewarm opinion on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2024
    lordmarcovan, Jun 6, 2024
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  19. edteach

    edteach Well-Known Member

    Maybe we can start a thread where members post fair deals on Julius Caesar coins they see on auction and other sites. that way those of us looking for one will have a better chance at not missing one that could fit our needs.
     
    edteach, Jun 8, 2024
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  20. Dafydd

    Dafydd Supporter! Supporter

    This is as close as I've got to one so far.
    upload_2024-6-8_22-24-27.png upload_2024-6-8_22-24-44.png
    Obv: T[EOC] ; Bare head of Caesar right.
    Rev: TECCA?O - NIKEON ; Bare head of Augustus right.

    RPC 1554 $85 dollar coin.
     
    Dafydd, Jun 8, 2024
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  21. Ryan McVay

    Ryan McVay Well-Known Member

    Nice group lots, Chris. Club misses you!
     
    Ryan McVay, Jun 11, 2024
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