How would one go about checking to see if a Morgan has "Bowl Luster". From what little information I have seen on this and from the description it is rare. On the site I saw this "Best of Yesterday - Monster Toned Morgans" this is the only description given, "Bowl = curved mirrors (like a bowl) up to the edge of the coin. This type appears like a hybrid of Cartwheel and Prooflike surface types and is quite striking in appearance." An example was also shown but I couldn't tell the difference between a normal Morgan with Cartwheel Luster and one with the Bowl Luster. So, by the description, one with Cartwheel Luster is flat up to the edge of the coin and PL are curved up the the edge of the coin?
Quite honestly, bowl luster is not a term I've ever heard used before. The only thing I can even imagine it might refer to is the way that some Morgans have the slightly curved fields you describe. That, I think I can explain. It's usually referred to as basining. I've never been sure why they use that word, all it does is confuse people for the most part in my opinion. In simple terms basining is nothing more than a fancy word for polishing, and that's all it is, polishing. What happens is this, all dies are polished when they are made. But sometimes when die gets clashed it has to be sent back to be polished again, to polish out the clash marks. Now usually, because of the way that die are polished, nothing unusual happens. But sometimes, and I never could figure out exactly how it happens exactly, but sometimes the outer edges of the die (the outer edges of the fields) are polished down enough that a very, very, gentle curve is put on them. Subsequently when a coin is struck with those dies that very gentle curve is imparted to the outer edges of the fields of that coin. And they curve, ever so slightly, upwards towards the rim. It's no big deal really, in fact it is mistake, a screw up, for the dies are not supposed to have any curve in them at all. They were not designed that way, they were intended to have any curve. Nonetheless, some do. That's the only thing I can think of that somebody is now calling bowl luster. I dunno, probably just another fancy word somebody dreamed up to make some coins seem special, when they really aren't.
Thanks for the info GDJMSP, I have never heard of bowl luster either and was just curious as I have a 1881-S toned MS65 Morgan that appears to have a radius right at the edge of the coin where the denticles and field meet.
Never heard of "bowl luster." What you're describing sounds like what would be called "concave fields." The best example of that for Morgans is 1878 VAM 14.4, although there are others, including some 1881-S, where the field is a little more dished looking than normal due to die prep. It is a neat effect on PL coins, to be sure.
I forgot to mention the Obverse on my 1881-S is Semi PL/PL. Also, I saw the Morgan that has this "bowl luster" more than other years is the 1880-S.
I've never heard the term "double stamped" before either but some of the less experienced sellers use it quite frequently. I expect that "bowl luster" is just one of those made up terms.
There is such a thing, although i believe its called bowl luster because there isnt a better term for this effect. Messy desk is correct, only a coin with concave fields will produce this " bowl luster effect" THESE COINS DO NOT CARTWHEEL! I had an 1882 S with a concave obverse( i dont recall the vam #) The way the light reflected on this coin would produce a circle. You could twirl it spin it, hula hoop it around all you wanted but it just would not produce any sort of cartwheel. I guess halo luster might be another term you could use (yes, i just coined that term)
I was reading something a while back about this. Maybe Roger's book. I'm not sure. It said they would basin the die to improve the strike while using less pressure. That made me think they had a way to tilt and spin the die while it was being polished.
Bowl Luster is not a term that I've ever heard - I agree that it sounds like a made up thing. Just a clarification on some of the other posts - all dies are basined. There is a curvature to the fields of every coin. Some are very shallow (almost all modern coins), and some are very deep (for example, Buffalos). However, there is a curvature to every die, and thus every coin. This is done primarily for 2 reasons: 1.) The curvature serves an artistic purpose to highlight the elements of the coin. By making the fields curved, you can make some of the devices stand out more and create a greater contrast than with flat fields. 2.) The shape of the die will direct the flow of metal. You want the center of the die to strike the coin first, which will direct the metal outwards. For this reason, the high point of the die (that is, the lowest point on a coin) is going to be the center. There will be a gradual curvature outward to ensure the metal flows outward. And a correction to another post - coins with basining will absolutely have cartwheel luster. The basining refers to the shape of the die, and the cartwheel is created by the flow of metal upon striking. Since the shape of the die directs the flow of metal, more or less basining will change the appearance of luster, but all die-struck coins experience cold flow, and will thus all show luster. The effect that heavycam is referring to sounds like an exhausted die, or a clashed and repolished die, in which case the texture of the luster will appear differently.
In Merchanti's book on SAEs, he mentions "basining" a lot, but I didn't take the time to re-read it enough to understand exactly what he was talking about.
@heavycam.monstervam @GDJMSP any update on what you guys have learned? I'm curious to see if this has become a more recognized term or if it still mainly pertains to coins with a convex/concave polishing.
Which term are you asking about - bowl luster as in the title of this thread, or basining which is mentioned in the posts ? Regarding bowl luster, other than this thread I've never heard of it before - or since. Basining however is another matter. It's term that some folks just don't seem to understand, and I believe they misuse it a lot, thinking it means one thing when it means something else entirely different. Some folks seem to think it means the surfaces of a coin are curved, dished, shaped like a basin. But this is not the case at all - it simply isn't true. Basining or basined has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of a coin or coin die. Basining or basined is nothing more than a synonym for polishing or polished - that's it, period. From Heritage - Basining The process of polishing a die to create a mirrored surface or to remove clash marks or other damage from a die. https://coins.ha.com/c/ref/glossary.zx From PCGS - basining The process of polishing a die to impart a mirrored surface or to remove clash marks or other injuries from the die. Now that should take care of what the actual definition of basining or basined is and what the term actually means. Regarding other comments in this thread, in particular those in post #11 that I disagreed with - There is a curvature to the fields of every coin. That is also simply not true. As a general rule coins and coin dies are flat, perfectly flat. I said as a general rule because there are some examples where this is not the case, but they are few and far between. For example, in post #5 John, messydesk, mentioned a particular Morgan, a particular VAM. Here's another thread where that exact coin is discussed, along with the general subject matter being discussed here. https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1878-morgan-with-a-concave-reverse.191335/ And to back up what I'm saying about coins and coin dies being flat, I offer you this - https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v10n37a08.html Read it for yourselves, I believe everyone will recognize the names mentioned in this article. In essence, it provides you words straight from the proverbial horse's mouth ! And it confirms everything I've said about coins and coin dies being flat in this thread and several others. Were there exceptions to this ? Yes, and I've said that all along. And several of those exceptions are mentioned in that article, along with an explanation as to why some coins had ever so slightly curved dies near the outer edges. It will also tell you that this design was quickly abandoned, and why, though experimented with again later in a few cases. Bottom line, with very few exceptions, coin dies and coins are flat - period. Hopefully this answers your question LuxUnit.
Bowl lustre is mentioned and described in the Toned Morgans section of the Jhon E. Cash web site. See attached link and scroll down to surface types. http://jhonecash.com/coins/tonedmorgans.asp
