Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by merrill01, Mar 27, 2015.
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Okay, Lehigh, I think we agree on more than we might have otherwise guessed. 1) that toned '46 is probably a better example of attractiveness divergence of opinion than any I might easily come up with. 2) NGC stars are tough to get. 3) we don't have a world with ugly penalties, but perhaps we should.
Oh, one more thing. The fact that you bought the '46 for $82 and got $95 for it is screaming at me. It's yelling at me, "These guys are operating in a world so cockeyed compared to what you're doing, it's pointless to even consider it the same hobby in practice."
Paying a premium for toning is logical if you like toned coins. If you take all the 1946 Roosevelt Dimes in MS65, the population supports a price of $10-$15. But only a small fraction of those coins and the coins graded higher have rainbow toning. The smaller population (less supply) drives a premium price. Your problem is simply that you don't like toning and would be happy to own the blast white coin. Those who desire toned coins appreciate the eye appeal of the toning and the fact that the toning gives their coin a measure of originality that separates it from the rest of the untoned herd. Furthermore, you have some collectors who abhor the practice of dipping and seek coins with an "original skin." In my experience, these collectors tend to shy away from dramatic toning and look for much more mundane toning. These are the guys who actually like the tobacco spit stained coins that you described earlier.
This was ManofCoins and he was "outed" through investigative techniques and only after definitive proof was presented, did he confess his lies.
The "lie" was in this thread:
He bought back everything he could and then proceeded to destroy the coins instead of removing the toning though dipping.
I do not recall the purchasers of his coins as having "loved" then "hated" the coins once the truth was revealed that they were (Accelerated Toning). The one who AT'ed them received a lot of hate. Not so much for the ATing but for the lying.
What I hear you saying in so many words is their market is based on myth and to the degree collectors become cognizant of same such will dumb that market. Is that a pretty fair synopsis?
I think you are hearing what you want to hear. The evaluation of toning is subjective, just like the evaluation of the surfaces. You can send a coin into PCGS and one day it will be MS64 and the next day it might be MS65. And the best part is that both grades are correct. Some coins will have toning that is borderline QT/MA and other coins will have surfaces that are borderline MS64/65. The decision about which grade is assigned in either case is a subjective one made by the TPGs.
However, I will admit that there are many collectors who don't understand the philosophy of "market acceptability" and see only NT and AT and nothing in between. I have admitted many times that it is impossible to say with 100% certainty whether any coin is actually AT or NT. Therefore, the determination of the TPGs with respect to toning is always going to be a "best guess" based on the characteristics of the toning and how they compare with known & accepted toning patterns and color schemes. There are people in this world who simply don't have the ability to accept that level of ambiguity with respect to grading and avoid toned coins all together.
What were the arguments like prior to the TPG's? Whether you think they are accurate or are over grading coins, it's still an objective opinion. I can see some of the great ego/personalities in this hobby having heated arguments over a coins grade to the point of fisticuffs!
The posts about this coin were correct. This did finally end up in a PCGS Genuine holder. It is funny that they stuck "Proof" on the label at the end, even though earlier they had it a MS. Ultimately third party grades are just someones opinion at a particular moment, and not an end all be all -- and peoples opinions can be (and often are) wrong.
Is there any pictures of his work
Popular in school were you?
I love the way that some people label things that don't interest them as "trivial". And yet they "waste their time" by clicking on and reading threads on those very subjects -- and then complain about it to everyone else. LOL
Most things posted in the various forums on CoinTalk don't interest me at all. Yet I would never (ever) consider going into all those threads and telling people they are wasting their time on that particular (self-proclaimed) "trivial" subject matter. Just because it doesn't interest me, doesn't mean it's trivial.
Most hobbies are by their very nature of a more relaxed and informal tone -- people gain pleasure from various aspects of various hobbies -- so let people live and let live and enjoy what they enjoy and not be so closed-minded and full of yourself that you are the ultimate judge of what is important and what is trivial. If something doesn't interest you, don't subscribe to or click on those threads.
OK I will get off my soapbox now.
It's not trivial to those that have posted in this thread. After 350+ post, I would say it's important to many.
I presented it earlier in my "This reminds me of this coin" post.
Where is the Booooo button!
Nothing you or I can do - hence trivial.
1. Don't trust the sellers of coins to be the foremost expert.
2. Never pay a premium for toning unless you are prepared to eat it.
3. Instead pay the premium for it being uncleaned.
4. Want to start a 20+ page argument, warn someone about the above.
Edit to add: Want to impress me, grow hair on one.
I'm not sure how you can call a subject that has inherent financial implications trivial. I understand your argument that debating this topic is futile, but that doesn't make it trivial IMO.
Separate names with a comma.