I never have had faith in this company and today I found out why. I had an NTC slabbed 1921 Morgan graded MS66. I sent it to NGC to have them cross grade it, knowing full well it would come back MS63 most likely. I opened the package today and it came back Non-gradable! Cleaned Rev. Unreal. Anyway I didn't spend much on the coin or the crossover. I learned a lesson today. (No NTC) Thought I'd share with the rest of you!
Yep--NTC isn't really good at detecting cleaned coins and such.....BUT---I think they do have some good coins---IIRC one of the members here found a Proof Barber Half Dollar in a NTC slab and got it cheaper because it was in a NTC slab....even a blind squirel finds a nut or two. Speedy
Speedy used to swear by ANACS, now he disses them. A real expert unbiased opinion on TPG`S. That said, NTC, NNC, SGS, CCGS, USGS and any other BS grading service holds NO WEIGHT as far as market value and true grade. If you don`t learn to grade and trust your own grading, you deserve to get beat when you buy these no-name grading slabs.
So you pay them $30.00 to tell you your coin can not be graded,That is about the price of a grading book to help you learn to grade your own coins. And that is why I read books and come to cointalk.
I bought a ANACS slab the other day---nice job if I do say so... My dealer sent in a coin just a few days ago---a Morgan Dollar and it came back MS66.... Speedy
Well yes and no. Many get upset when a coin is bodybagged and returned unslabbed. They think that unless the coin is slabbed and graded that they didn't get what they paid for. But the truth of the matter is that they did get what they paid for - they paid for the opinion of the grading company and they got it whether the coin was slabbed or not. The grading companies still have to process the coin through their system, they have to pay the rent etc for their facility, they have to pay the folks who open the packages and pass them on to the graders, they have to pay the graders & authenticators and they have to pay the folks who re-package the coins and send them back. Everybody involved does their job and they are entitled to be paid for it. Whenever a person submits a coin for grading they do so knowing full well that the coin will be bodybagged if it does not measure up to the criteria established by the grading company. And yes I can understand them being upset if a coin that they paid a substantial sum for is returned in a bag with a note that says harshly clened or altered coin or even counterfeit coin. But that's not the grading comany's fault - it's their own fault for buying such a coin. And in such cases what you are doing is paying the grading company to tell you - oooops, you made a mistake. And that in my opinion is much more valuable than the slabbed coin could ever be, for you have just been educated. And that's where the books and learning how to determine such things yourself come into play - so that you can recognize a harshly cleaned, altered or counterfeit coin and not buy it in the first place. And so that you can learn how to grade accurately so that you do not overpay for a coin.
This is a bad business practice in my opinion. It isn't fraud, because the customer knows up front what the rules are, but it's amazing that this sort of thing is tolerated by the collecting community, and even defended! The sole purpose is to make a little extra profit [i.e., avoiding the cost of slabbing] under the guise of somehow upholding strict standards. When a customer pays to have the coin graded and slabbed, this should be done even if the grade comes back as "AU50 - Cleaned" or whatever. There is absolutely no good reason why a coin should not be in a slab regardless of condition as long as the condition is spelled out on the label. After all, that's what the customer is paying for.
I agree with the Cloudsweeper on this. Whereas I don't believe it is fraud I do believe all grading companys should slab the coin regardless of condition and label it as such. To just send it back in a bodybag is unprofessional and " that's this mans opinion". By the way I thought NGC sent coins to NCS if the coin is cleaned etc. , or do you have to pay extra for that as well ? They are the same company , isn't that true ? Maybe not. At least ANACS , PCI and others give you something for your money besides an opinion. Too bad they don't command a better price when you try to sell.
Thanks, there is always more then one way to look at a opinion thats is why I like it here so much shareing from one collector to another. :smile
While I strongly disagree with you here, there is a solution. send your coins to ICG. They do NOT charge a grading fee for coins returned ungraded (although they will charge a $5 administrative fee for those coins). It seems that the market has spoken and people are willing to pay to have coins returned in bags as opposed to sending them to ICG.
Both companies (they are seperate) are part of the Certified Collectibles Group, but since they are distinc they don't work together the way you mentioned. If you send a cleaned coin to NGC it will be bb'd for the improper cleaning. But if you are aware that the coin is a suspected problem coin then you have the option of sending it to NCS FIRST, with instructions that if they deem it a NO PROBLEM coin then it should be sent to NGC for grading/slabbing. NCS charges a small % of the coin's value for their pre-service evaluation fee. This fee applies to all coins sent to NCS. Then based on that evaluation the coin will have one of 3 things done to it. 1)if it is a no problem coin that would be unhelped by conservation it is forwarded on to NGC for grading, or 2) it is found to be a coin that has problems that cannot be corrected/improved through conservation, in which case it will be returned or slabbed by NCS (depending on the submitter's preference), or 3) it will be conserved after which it will be returned unslabbed or slabbed by NCS (if it is still a problem coin) or sent to NGC for grading if the problem doesn't preclude it. NCS charges a second fee if they do conservation work and then they charge a third fee if the coin is slabbed by NCS (this fee is charged by NGC if they do the slabbing). I hope this clears it up for you.
I agree and do not understand how it is any other way. It doesn't seem overly complicated to me... I pay... you grade and note any problems. ANY and EVERY coin *can* be graded. Doesn't matter if it's been tooled, cleaned, dipped, dropped, scratched, countermarked, etc. It has a condition (from worn metal slug to MS70). One of my favorite coins I own is a slabbed 1861 seated liberty quarter. It's graded "UNC Details NET AU55" and I'm glad it was graded this way as that altered what I would have paid for it otherwise. With all the talk about overgrading and scamming newbies, it baffles me why collectors wouldn't DEMAND that companies slab everything so that the power of knowledge can be used in determining the purchase price. Here's the quarter and an 1831 1c, also noted.
thanks cave troll for the NGC/NCS info. Still confusing as hell. it seems like they always want you to submit 5 at a time, both to NTC or NGC... if you re trying to use the free grading coupons it gets even worse. I was going to send off some coins to them, but instead sent them to ANACS. they slab problem coins, they make sure to put it on the label. its simple no strange chutes and ladders checkboxes or rules...
The primary reason that the grading companies do not slab problem coins is because there is no way to determine the value. That's also why even ANACS stopped net grading coins. With slabbed coins a certain grade equals a certain value - this is a given. That's why coins are slabbed to begin with - to enable sight unseen trading between two parties who cannot meet face to face. If a coin is slabbed as MS64 by NGC or PCGS then a potential buyer knows what to expect based upon that grade and how much that particular coin is worth because there is an established criteria that each company uses to assign a given grade. But if the coin had problems and it were slabbed - the buyer would know nothing for there are no established criteria for grading problem coins. The buyer would have no idea whatsoever how bad the problem might be or what the coin might be worth. And in today's world, since the vast majority of coins are sold sight unseen - knowing the value based upon the grade is essential. Believe it or not, the majority of collectors do not want to own problem coins. They do not want them to be slabbed, they do not even want them on the market. So the grading companies comply with the wishes of their customers. And personally, I think this is a good thing. For there are far too many new collectors in the hobby who have a hard enough time determining what a slabbed coin is worth. A lot of them would not realize what the "Cleaned" ( or any other ) designation would mean in regard to value. And it would be far too easy for the unscrupulous seller to take advantage of them. We have enough of that as it is.
I don't see why not, nor do I feel that any grading company's grade determines a coin's value. If grading were an absolute science I would agree with you. It isn't, so I don't. Again, there is so much disparity between coins that are graded the same (either varying grades of the same graded coin, toning, etc.) that I don't see how this is different. A MS61 coin is not a MS61 coin is not a MS61 coin, far as I've ever seen. If all MS61 coins were *exactly* alike, then I would understand (and agree) with your point of view. One of you is incorrect... http://www.ngccoin.com/faqs.asp#question10 " The vast majority of coin buyers today purchase coins on a "sight seen" basis and choose only those coins that meet their criteria, that is, they posses the qualities that are most important to them." While I might agree that they might not want to own problem coins, grading and clearing labeling a coin as a problem coin makes it clear which coins are problem coins, and if someone submits a coin (and pays for the grading opinion) I see NO reason why a coin could not be graded as such. A coin is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it. That may be more or less than whatever guide or sheet says it's "worth." If someone is willing to pay the same price for a cleaned coin as an uncleaned one, then the cleaned one is "worth" the same. Many people it's worth less, and how much less is again, what someone is willing to pay. How much is my uncleaned 1897 PF63 Proof Barber 50c "worth?" Depending on what site, guide or sheet you look at, it will vary. I can tell you how much I bought it for (which might be less or might be more). How much would it be worth if it were cleaned? Only 731 were ever minted (no telling how many actually exist out of that number) and assuming all minted still exist, there's only 730 left for the rest of you, in any grade, cleaned or uncleaned.
