Hello all. This is my first posting on this board, although i have spent hours reading archived info. I have been asked by a relative to liquidate for him a collection of coins,most of which are morgan dollars.He invested in these14 years ago and is not a knowlegable collector nor does he have any relationship with a dealer. I am not educated in this field at all- i am not a collector-but ive done a cram course over the last few weeks on this stuff.there are about 40 coins.all were pcgs graded about 13 year ago.many are dmpl and some are pl.80% are ms65, a few 64 and a few 66.I understand (preliminarily and in rough numbers) the price a few dealers would pay based on holder value is like 50K.also a few saint gaudens and others for aroun 10K more.NOW- heres my question-do i use method #1 OR method #2 to liquidate these (in one lot) method #1-consign to a big auction co. in dallas- they would put it in the FUN auction.this is what THEY recommend-they say it should bring more than selling outright, my impression is like -oh say like -10-20% more (my net) or method #2-contact about 5 PNG established and well known dealers in the area ,faxing them the list,then have them all VIEW the coins and give a bid to buy outright. so thts my question to you guys.method 1 OR 2?? a few more notes--most guys ive talked to say or strongly imply that seeing as how they were slabbed 13 yr ago, it is HIGHLY possible some may merit regrading.the dallas company sez if so, they would break them out and send for grading BEFORE the auction so that they would be in the hopefully upgraded holders, rather than bidders using their own judgement.one more thing--if i go the 5 dealer route-how much money will i be leaving on the table if--a number of them concur that a few should be broken out BUT I DONT do it before i sell them to them but rather let them take the break out gamble.?? Thank you folks much in advance-and if i need to give more info let me know. notacoinguy
Okay, I will probably be the lone one recommending this, but for a large grouping of Morgans and Saints in old PCGS holders, I would contact http://bowersandmerena.com/ and let them come to you and evaluate your holdings and help you decide what is best for you. If you do not know anything about coins, go ahead and email a detailed list of coins, and I can give you a better idea of current values. Now many will tell you great little stories about how to do it yourself on Ebay, but I have made a living at this business for years, and with a major holding such as you describe, Bowers and Merena auctions are the way to go.
I do a lot of buying and some selling on Ebay, but I would never recommend that someone in your position use that venue. How many of these red flags would apply to you? Seller of high value coins with no feedback history? Seller who says he "doesn't know much about coins"? Poor quality photos? Whether you take Steve's specific advice about an auction house, or just his general advice to use an auction house, you'll be following the advice of someone who really knows what he is talking about.
I believe you are referring to Heritage out of Dallas and one thing I like about their web site is you get to see what past auctions closed at. This way, if you have a given PCGS graded coin or other top tier holder like NGC, ANACS and ICG, you can pretty much get an idea of what your coins will sell for. Also, the old green holders may help in the auction of these coins. True, you may submit them at $30 per coin plus wait around 45 to 60 days (economy service) to see if they moved up. But then again, many times you see auctions state in the description that the given coin is in a old holder and the coin may upgrade. Of course, you are talking about huge numbers when you go from a 65 to a 66, so that is up to you. But ND makes a good point, you have coins that major auction houses like and the dollars you have makes it worthwhile for them to come to you! Take advantage of that and let the bidding begin!
notacoinguy - If you choose to use an auction house - and I don't care which one - be it B & M or Heritage or 95% of all the others - you will end up paying them fees to sell your coins, usually about 15%. Not that there is anything wrong with that as they are providing a service. But it has not been mentioned yet. There are a few auction houses now offering to sell collections with no fees. This is almost unheard of - but the offers are being made. Secondly - it has been suggested that the auction house will come to you to appraise the collection. This is true - if the collection is worth enough - usually $100,000 minimum. It does not sound like yours is. So they likely won't come to you - unless you live nearby to them. This being said - someone in your position should never consider trying to sell the coins yourself. You need either a dealer or an auction house. If you go to a dealer - they are going to offer you approx 15 - 20% less than wholesale. If you go to an auction house - most of them are going to charge you 15% to sell your coins. So either way - you pay. Unless of course you use one of the houses who are not charging fees. As for the coins being in old slabs - yes - some of them may get upgrades if they are re-submitted. Some of them may get downgrades as well. There is no certainty in this. It is a gamble - plain and simple. You could win thousands or lose thousands. Now you say you could take the collection to 5 dealers - if this is so - you likely live in a fairly large city, otherwise there would not be 5 dealers. Given this - I would shop around and get their bids. I would also contact the auction house closest to you and ask them for a bid. If you are close enough - they may come. Now I am going to say something no one else likely will. It is my belief that the coin market is on the eve of a substantial downturn. Not many agree with me. But - if it turns out I am correct then prices are going to drop. And when they do - they drop quickly. So it may not be wise to wait for an auction in Jan. or Feb. Given this - were it me - I would sell to the dealer with the best offer and sell now - or soon.
Ok here is a stupid question, ready? If they are in old PCGS holders and he re submits them to PCGS can he request that they either be held at the same grade or upgraded, but not downgraded? I can see if he sends them to another grading company they could downgrade them, but not if they were sent back to the same grader. He would still be out the grading fee, but not any $$ related to the downgrade.
It is possible to ask for a coin not to be downgraded. Yes the fees still apply. The only downside to this type of action would be that the person wishes to move the group as a whole. If you were the potential buyer looking at many new holders with a few old holders, what would your first impression be?
I certainly agree. I wouldn't use eBay for a bunch of quality stuff like this -- especially if I was a new seller with no feedback selling a bunch of expensive items. Most bidders stay away like the plague, expecting a scam (and with good reason).
I'd think that the coins were all resubmitted, the weaker coins for the grade wouldn't upgrade (old holders) and the stronger ones did upgrade (new holders) and, overall, most of the coins are likely to be on the weak side for the grade.
re-grade only the "chosen good ones" Thank you folks for the responses.The few dealers i've talked to say they would examine all the coins and see IF there are any that , they feel STRONGLY, should be regraded.I would hope that they would concur on them.We're definately not talking about regrading all or even most of the collection. Does anyone have comments about my last question in my original post?re-phrased-if a coin appears better than the holder grade,will i get much (like how much less if so) less $ than if it was in a higher grade holder? in yet another words- do most people "buy the coin or the holder"?? thank you all. notacoinguy.
I suppose that question needs to be clarified. It seems that many people who wish to invest in coins in order to turn a profit, place a lot of stock in slabs. Many of these same individuals also seem to know very little about the coins they deal in. On the other hand, many people wouldn't give a plugged nickel for a slab. To them, coins are all that matter. So you see, there are two different groups of people here. Your slabbed coins will likely be of interest to the person looking to invest, while the coin collector probably won't give them a second look.
We always preach, "Buy the coin, not the holder." With that said, some holders hold their value better than others. PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG are the top four graders out there and PCGS (presently) seems to get more for their graded coins (same coin, same grade) than NGC which gets more than the other two. For now...many will state that NGC's prices are catching up. I like to look at past auctions on sites like Heritage and you can see yourself when and how much were paid for the "same" coin. If you resubmit them back to PCGS, for instance, you can state that the minimum grade you will be willing accept. If PCGS doesn't feel (and that's where the debate always happens when we talk about somebody else's subjective opinion) that the coin deserves a higher grade, they will still charge for the grading service and return your coin in the existing slab. If you are lucky and their graders grade the coin up from say a MS65 to a MS66...jackpot! (so to say). New holder, better grade...big dollars in a 65 versus a 66! Many times you see coins listed as "MS65...looks MS66" or "MS64...why it isn't MS65 is beyond me!?! Should easily upgrade." These are people that sincerely believe their coin is a higher grade than what the grading service issued! Auction houses will have nice pictures of their coins that you can zoom in and have a look. Of course, you have two similar coins side by side with the same grade and you are left scratching your head thinking why do they have the same grade when one looks "better" than the other. Then the next person comes along and thinks the other has a better "strike". I like coin A, he likes coin B...hmmmm. Yes, most serious colletors buy the coin first, not the slab...however, in this day and age with sight unseen buying and selling, a lot is put into the coin by which professional service graded it. PCGS is still pulling in the premium prices and if you are lucky to upgrade from the old holder to the current ones, that is great!
Here you know the story of the coins, but if you were a buyer with no knowledge that some of the coins were re submitted, how would you know? Notacoinguy some people buy the slab, some buy the coin. My opinion is buy the coin. In high grade coins you can talk hundreds to thousands of dollars difference in grades.
Let me share why I asked the question as to what you would think. Now keep in mind that I do this for a living, so my thoughts may differ from most. When a customer walks into the office or up to the table at a show with a large grouping of coins, the first thing that comes to mind is consistency. The first thing when seeing old holders is "Will this coin upgrade"? Now if you sprinkle in new holders, I have to ask myself why didn't this person re-submit the old holders? It will be a quick assumption by most dealers. This tells you that the coin is either weak or solid for the grade. Now most people especially dealers always assume the worst. Now my suggestion is go with the offensive and take into consideration that MOST people are hoping for the regrade. Keep them in the old holders and let someone else take the shots. I have old slabs sitting on my desk waiting for the next owner to take a shot.
Call me ignorant, because I am, but why is consistency of the holder an issue? I have coins that are in holders by both PCGS and NGC does that mean that if I want to sell them as a group I should get them all regraded by the same comapny so they are all in the same type of holder? Don't coins in a "new" holder get resubmitted in hopes of a higher grade, just because it is in an old holder makes it "bad"?
Sorry, I think that you are missing my point. Since I have had access to more information about this collection, it just makes sense to me. There are multiple coins of the same date, mintmark and grade. With numerous coins obviously being brought together at one time the consistency needs to be there. If there were multiple grading services involved it would be different. I buy large groups on a regular basis, and they come is all shapes and sizes. My thoughts shared here are just based on my experiences. You develop a feel for things when you do it all the time. For this particular case, the coins should not be resubmitted by the owner. It would be a chance that really isn't going to make that much of a difference. The standards while having changed are not going to be in favor of growing higher on most of the coins in this particular collection. I hope that makes more sense.
Ok, I think I understand now. What you are saying is, since they are in older holders let the new buyer take the risk in having them regraded? Getting back to the original question of the best way to liqudate the coins. An auction house is going to take 20 - 25% in commission and you don't know what the final sell price will be and a dealer will give greysheet prices, approximently, which is the better way to go?
Auction houses charge the seller 5% and the buyer 15%. While there is always a risk in sending coins to auction, some factors can be limited. I routinely submit coins to Bowers and Merena and have never been disappointed yet. Now not all coins fair well at Bowers and Merena, so this suggestion is based on first hand knowledge of the material in question.
