Bad Coin Show Etiquette

I attended our local annual coin show yesterday and today. All in all I enjoyed the show except for an unpleasant experience I had today.

I was looking for something in particular and a buddy sent me to a dealer's table. It turned out the item was not to my liking. I am always on the lookout for nice counterfeits and I asked the dealer if he had any counterfeits. He said that he had two - a counterfeit $2 1/2 gold piece (not an Indian) and a very nice altered coin. (I don't want to go into any more detail about the coins because I don't want to even hint as to who the dealer is.) So I looked at the $2 1/2 and it is OK but not great. (By that I mean it would probably fool a lot of people but it was not good enough to fool someone that knows what to look for.) I asked his price and he said, "I bought this coin as a genuine coin. Another dealer told me it was fake. I paid $250 for it and I have to get what I paid for it." Really? OK. Melt on the thing is $180 and I am willing to pay over melt for it but not a lot. I jokingly said, "You paid $250 for the coin thinking it was genuine and you want $250 for it. I shouldn't have to pay for your mistake should I?" He persisted that he could not take less than what he paid. I asked him if he had paid $400 for it would he ask $400 for it. I put the coin down and asked to see the altered coin.

The altered coin is one that was discussed here recently except this one was nicely done. I am no expert but I think it is a contemporary alteration (meaning I think the alteration was made about 150 years ago, not recently). The host coin was a nice XF and had toned to a nice chocolate. It is one of the nicer ones that I have seen. But the coin is the wrong type for the date it was altered to. Again, it was a very nice example and I was interested in it. I asked his price and he said, "$230." Gulp!! I told him I would have to think about it. We chatted a bit and it turns out he was an instructor at ANA Summer Seminar last week. I have taken the course he taught but I had different instructors. He said something less than flattering about the other instructors and how ANA got rid of them and asked him to teach the course. I didn't think that was very professional but I let it go. I told him that I have been thinking about taking that course again.

I phoned a dealer who knows counterfeits very well and he said the altered coin should sell for $50 to $100 tops. If it was the correct type (meaning if the host coin was closer in date to the altered date) it would be worth more but being the wrong type limits its value. A different dealer told me another one similar to this one sold at auction recently and brought $250+ but the buyer needed it for his collection of these alterations and paid strong money for his. That does not mean all of them are worth what that guy paid.

So I went back to the dealer's table, sat down and asked to see the coins again. He laid them out in front of me. I proceeded to tell him I thought the $2 1/2 was not bad but it wasn't a great counterfeit (even though it was good enough to fool him) and melt is $180 . . .

Then a guy walked up behind me and said to the dealer, "Hey, Joe (not his name). Do you have any counterfeit type coins?" The dealer turned his attention to this guy and said, "Yeah! I have this great XXXXX. You wanna see it?" And he picked up the altered coin and started to hand it to the guy. HELLO!! I thought you were dealing with me. The dealer looked at me and said, "You mind if I show this coin to him?" I sat back in the chair and said, "I thought we were discussing the coin but do whatever you want." He put the coin down and told the guy he would get with him in a minute. (But the guy kept hanging around.) GEEESH!!

So the dealer turned his attention back to me (at least partially) and I explained that melt on the $2 1/2 is $180 and it is not an especially good counterfeit but I would be interested at $225 (which I think is more than it is worth but I liked it). He said he wouldn't take less than $250 so I put the coin down and picked up the altered coin (with the other guy still lingering around) and told him that I would pay $100. $325 for the pair. He thought about it and came back with $390. I thanked him and told him my offer of $325 stands and I would let him think about it and return later.

So a couple of hours later I returned to his table with money in hand. ($335. I decided I could go another $10 higher but that was my limit.) I said, "Let's talk about those coins." He said, "What coins was that?" Come on! So I told him. He said, "I sold the altered coin for substantially more than you offered." OK. Good for you. So I counted out $225 and said, "I'm willing to give you $225 for the $2 1/2." He thought about it and said he could go $235. I again offered $225 and he declined. I thanked him and before I left I said, "Next time I see you I may be your student."

I could not believe what he said next - - - "You wouldn't like the class."

He is probably right. We were unable to agree on a price for his coins. I am not angry. But apparently he wasn't happy. I thought that was very unprofessional of him and I doubt I will ever visit his table again.

So where do I think there was bad coin show etiquette?
1) The guy walking up and interrupting us while we were discussing coins.
2) The dealer turning his attention to the rude guy that interrupted us.
3) The dealer offering to show a coin that I am interest in to the rude guy.
4) The dealer becoming persnickety when we got to within $10 but could not agree on a price.
5) Maybe a few more but that is enough.

 

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I have only been to four or five shows, so I am still learning what to expect and what are the rules regarding coin show etti. I think that a persons expectations are formed by their experiences, iow a person who is often interrupted by others becomes numbed to the faux pas.

I am guessing that the guy who interrupted your transaction was a close friend/crony of the dealer and their relationship is less formal than most of the normal coin show relationships of buyer and sellers.

It is too bad that you and the dealer could not make the deal, I am surprised that a counterfeit would command any premium at all, but some must be desirable to those who collect them or they would not have a premium.

I sort of lost the thread at the end, you offered 225, he countered 235, you agreed and he cancelled the deal? Or did you mean to write that you repeated your 225 offer?

 

Sorry about that. It's been a long week. That's kind of like telling a long joke and blowing the punch line. I need sleep.

That is what I meant. I have corrected my post. I'm off to bed now.

 

haha...poor hobo...

 

all of the above.

I wouldn't deal with him again, ever.

 

This experience seems to fit the stereotypical dealer... the ones we often hear about. I've only attended a few shows myself, never bought much, so I have little to compare to. I like to think of dealers as friendly, knowledgable and reasonable. It appears in this case he was "none of the above". Sometimes you have to admit your mistake and minimize your losses; and your offer was more than fair. I find it hard to believe (from your description) that this gentleman is going to teach an ANA class.
As far as the 'rude guy', well, I guess there's always a few bad apples. I always thought of coin collectors as fairly intelligent and schooled in etiquette, but this guy was not only rude but apparently arrogant. Anyway, very interesting post, Hobo.

 

I don't begrudge him for trying to make a living, but I doubt he gets much repeat business.

 

You gave him more time than I would have. Although I know what it's like to come back for the sake of a desirable coin, despite the jerk selling it.

 

It seems funny.

I have seen this soft of scenario several times.

A dealer buys a coin and it turns out that he/she didn't notice a scratch (for example) and the coin is now worth, perhaps, $25 not the original $100.

But, he still want $100, "cause that is what I paid".

Oh, so it is alright for the collector to lose money, but not the dealer?

He always has to make money?

Why not us?

 

I will only pay for my mistakes, not someone else's. That gets too expensive.

 

98% of time, I'm a buyer, so I'm on your side, believe me. But keep in mind that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If the price is too high, then don't buy it.

If this dealer sells the coin for their orig asking price of say $100, then he accurately priced it as it was worth $100 to somebody, just not you.

I would've walked, never to return to this dealer after he told me there was no negotiating the price because he was going to break even at my expense on a mistake he made.

-LTB

 

Sounds like the dealer was working with a partner to try to make you act now and pay full price.

 

First of all I don't do counterfeit or altered coins.

The bourse floor is not for hesitation. You either make the deal at that point in time are all bets are off. A dealer is under no obligation to hold a price once someone walks away. Argueing with a dealer about price will hack him off.

I do not allow someone walking up to interrupt a customer I am dealing with especially if that person is possibly a strong buyer. Sometiems these people want to horn in on the deal (pushing out the dealer) which is worse (I will get rid of them). He may have done this bc he considered you a "looky look" and saw the other guy as someone who would pay the money. When you first talked to him he wanted $250 on the $2.5 Indian and $230 on the altered coin a total of $480. He was willing to take $390 from you after some some haggling. This is $90 almost 20% off. What do you want him to do give them to you? I think that is a generous discount for what he wanted for his coins. I do not get into discussions with buyers about what I have in my coins. You then walked away from the deal so now all bets are off and when you came back and he tried to meet you more than half way at $235 on your offer of $225 for a coin he originally qoted $250 on you walked away again. Obviously, he was not too anxious to get rid of it.

I dont think the guy is going to win any awards for being MR nice guy but he is a good businessman. First of all I dont care about their arguements, when their BS starts its usually time for them to leave my table. If I have a lot of room in say a $480 deal I will consider a counteroffer if its in a reasonable profit range for me. If the offer is a little too Cheap A, I will counter somewhere inbetween. I would not typically discount it below 10% of my asking price. On such a deal I might say "$430 is my best price as I operate on a narrow spread." Then the customer could take it or get lost.

I do think its a lame arguement for a dealer to get into the "what I paid for it" stuff as this has nothing really to do with the current market value of the coin. While I am willing to discount coins I have a lot of room in assuming its a cash buyer (and we all know coins can take long to turnover sometimes) if the customer wants to argure with me with CS or wont pay what I want for the coin to make a decent ROI then its adios. I just dont care about their BS, at that point its time for them to leave. I set up at shows to buy and sell at my price not win a popularity contest. I would not insult someone about "not making it in my class" I keep it all in a professional, business like manner.

I especially can't stand customers who want to take the coin from my table to show to another dealer (I wont allow this) nor bring another dealer over to negotiate the deal. I had the latter happen not too long ago. Both come up to my table after I had quoted $160 to the coustomer. The dealer asks how much is that coin - I say $160. He then says "Is that Bid" - I told the so and so I don't do wholesale and if he wants the coin I need $160 for it. They then walked away.

 

Bingo. Winning post of the thread right there, folks.

 

The part about the other customer and his comment about the class were rude.

As for the price negotiations, it seems like he was up front about his position on the counterfeit from the start, and you offered less than half his asking price on the altered. It just wasn't going to happen.

 

Unfortunately, too many dealers/customers have forgotten the meaning of:

Tact
n.
1. Acute sensitivity to what is proper and appropriate in dealing with others, including the ability to speak or act without offending.

 

Lol!!!

 

LOL? Taylor, no offense but are you posting just to post?

 

OK....I am a weird kid.....ok really, I was trying to reach 1 thousand posts! I just love ct!

 

I thought as much.

In case you have not noticed - - - you are over 1,000 posts now.