Bad Cleo

I will not say where this photo is from, but was shocked the firm is selling it. This is one of the worst examples of her I have ever seen regarding tooling. Good gosh, even her famous schnoz is a complete fantasy. Might as well have took a completely blank planchet and carved this into it, since there is no way of knowing with such extensive tooling if the coin even started out as a real Cleo VII.

It is up to $650 plus the vig too. I know these are getting pricey folks, but hold off on a real coin please, not fantasy pieces.

 

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You've got to love this in the coin's description....

The problem is that specific auction house has become the predominant auction house for ancients, and attracts pretty much every collector in the hobby, as well as the investor types. So I'm not surprised to see even a pile of turd selling for way more than should sell...after all, there's hardly any bargains to be had anymore at these auctions due to how popular this place is now. Which is why I've moved on to lesser-known and smaller auction venues.

 

Yikes. It's not even 'well' tooled, either; it's straight up cut into the coin surface, without any attempt to hide it. At least they acknowledge that it's tooled, but selling it 'as is' is just skeevy.

 

Tooled coins have only been getting worse in recent years as more and more collectors of modern material are entering ancients (or just buying a few and dropping out). I really cant seem to understand it. I've had to pass on many dozens of sestertii this year that I would have loved to own, but I cannot bring myself to even touch such a coin let alone buy one.

Although, in defense of the auction house, when a collector brings in a lot of coins for consignment many times it 'take it all or take nothing', so I'm not surprised to see big names selling them.

Me, I wont own them.

 

Thanks for posting this. It's good to learn how to tell a coin is tooled with visuals.
Boo this auction house!

 

I think you guys are being a bit hard on the auction house... the tooling and smoothing is clearly pointed out in the description. It's not their fault the bidding is unreasonable! I can imagine them listing it thinking that someone was going to get an example of something they couldn't afford otherwise. Sadly, this won't be the case.

I got my untooled example from the same auction house, probably for around what the OP should sell for. @zumbly got his there too, and it's super-awesome partly for not being tooled at all (many are).

 

I am particularly fond of the way the name Cleopatra stands out on the reverse without wasting effort tooling in the right side. This coin has everything going for it including the ultra rare version where Cleo looks like Elizabeth Taylor.

 

Yes, it is pointed out, but Ray Charles knows its tooled without having to be told.

My concern is selling such a thing for any price. To me, the tooling is now to the level it literally could have started out as about anything. At what point, (I am asking), does excessive tooling turn something into an unsellable fantasy piece in which we will never know what the host coin even was?

 

Some newbie somewhere is making a mistake they will regret later...

 

There's at least one underbidder making the same mistake.

Phil Davis

 

Here's my example of this coin -- UNtooled.

 

Are you sure its Cleopatra? I thought it was Bob Hope

 

I've got to say the auction house isn't at fault here.
They bring in large numbers of mainstream bidders because they have a good reputation and a high profile. Good for them.

They state clearly this is a tooled coin and set the estimate and opening bid very low to reflect that. They've done their duty as an honest seller.
Sure they could refuse to sell the coin on principle but where do you draw that line? They have a business to run.

What bothers me is that a large number of bidders - investors, newbies or whoever are seemingly willing to pay top dollar for a tooled coin.
The last thing we want is for tooling to be profitable because if it is, its just going to become more prevalent and eventually, (barf) more accepted.

 

Insert witty tooled coin joke here =)

 

You arent kidding!
I just took a cruise through the current listings and spotted a type I own - in very comparable shape. The current bid is well over 20x estimate and thats many multiples of what I paid retail.
Strange times...
I guess this is how it can go in the world of art and collectibles auctions. A coin is worth whatever someone (some-two including the underbidder) is willing to pay.

 

Very tooled. Shocking in fact. I wouldn't buy it. But coins of Cleo are few and far between in good condition. I suppose the buyer will console himself/herself by thinking that the coin is actually made of ancient metal?

 

Well, the discussion I was hoping to start was: At what point is a tooled coin not really a coin anymore? Problem with tooling can be seen on this coin. We KNOW that is not her nose, (as a big nosed person, I am appalled at that pointy thing). So, if we KNOW some features are fake, which others on this coin are completely fake? At what point does it become pointless to even consider it a valid coin?

I am not a snob when it comes to such things. Smoothing I consider mainly fine, (just the act of cleaning ancients "smooths" them to an extent). I do not believe having someone fill in a hole in a coin to be sacrilege as long as it is disclosed. However, there has to be a line, and I suppose this coin crossed it for me, (otherwise I would not have posted it, I love the firm selling it and know a couple of employees there). Just where IS the line where we believe dealers should no longer sell a coin as an "ancient coin"? Does anyone have any opinions?

If I had to articulate my opinion, (its hard), I guess I would say any tooling other than minor strengthening of outlines of design element is unacceptable. The gross outline of her bust on this coin, (if it were done properly and not a Bob Hope nose), does not bother me as much as touching inside of the bust, adding details that was never there, as well as changing the outline of the bust. Once details are added, or the outline of the profile altered, I guess I would judge it a modern fantasy piece that may or may not have originally been an ancient coin. To me, the coin I posted, if I got it in a group lot, would go into my black box of fakes and forgeries.

 

I’m disappointed CNG would offer this garbage. I expect more from them. Lanz used to peddle this stuff all the time and everyone was up in arms.

 

Lanz seldom (if ever) discloses it though.