DEFINITION: When I use one of the forms of the term "slab" I am referring ONLY to PCGS or NGC. It is my understanding that for a coin to be slabbed AU-xx it should display some degree of Mint luster or Mint red as appropriate for the metal. And the higher "xx" is the more luster/red should show. So if a coin is slabbed AU-55 and has dull surfaces it would be a low-end AU-55 vs. one with some "life" to it which would be an average or high-end AU-55. OR Is the degree of luster/red accounted for in the grade, i.e., a dull AU-55 would have fewer other problems than an AU-55 with luster/red?
So, you're saying if you had two coins with the exact same amount of wear but one had amazing luster and the other was dull, the bright one could get a AU58 and the other a 55? I didn't know that luster affected the grade that much.
That's one part of my question. Another is if two coins were both labeled AU-55, would the one with dull surfaces have less wear or fewer marks than one with significant luster/red? So the real question is: - Is the amount of luster/red a grading consideration with AU coins? - If so, how much?
The color has nothing to do with it. Saying "luster/red" is not correct because they are different things. Luster is the light the original surface of the coin reflects and red is just the color of the metal as it comes from the mint. I have seen a lot of nice brown AU's with mint luster. But yes, a typical AU should have quite a bit of original mint luster.
So if an AU coin should have luster, if it had the worst luster possible could it lose the AU grade and fall to XF?
It depends on the amount of wear... XF's should even show traces of luster. If the coin has AU details and little or no luster... it's probably been cleaned because it should show luster. EDIT to add. It could also have been environmentally damaged but if an AU coin shows no mint luster there are only a few reasons for this and none of them are good.
As already said - color plays no part in the grade. With 2 exceptions - 1 - the 70 grade on copper. For a copper coin to achieve the 70 grade it must have original mint color. 2 - on toned coins eye appeal factors into the grade. And epsecially good eye appeal can bump the grade over what it would be on a similar untoned coin. This is true on MS and circ coins. So, the amount or original mint red color on copper coins typically plays no part in the numerical grade assigned to a coin. The color designation does however play a very large part in regard to price. And don't misunderstand, I am not saying that a coin must be toned for eye appeal to have an impact on the grade. Eye appeal always impacts the grade. I am merely explaining the only time that color can impact the grade. But if I understand your comments regarding luster correctly kanga - then yes, you are correct. Quality of luster is the single most important factor there is when grading MS coins. With circ coins, the amount of remaining luster comes into play. But how much, that depends on what standards you are using. With the TPG's (NGC & PCGS) the amount of remaining luster is less important. Under ANA standards, the amount of remaining luster is more important. And make note, I am talking about two entirely different things here - quality of luster and amount of remaining luster. And it is important to note that in both cases, if a coin is toned, the luster is often still there underlying the toning.
We're running into a lot of semantic and terminology problems here. That's why a topic such as this benefits from face-to-face discussions where a working definition can be established. I used the term luster/red to cover all coins, "red" referring to copper coins and luster referring to silver (and gold and nickel). I guess a better term would be "new Mint surfaces". I know that BN copper can have a fair amount of Red, but not enough to earn even the label RB (nevermind Red). And sticking just to copper for the moment, here's what I'm trying to find out. For AU coins, does toning affect the grade? Everything else being equal (wear, marks, etc.) would a BN coin receive a lower grade than an RB which would receive a lower grade than a Red coin?
Yes. But - it would most likely be due to over-dipping and thus the coin would be net graded to XF. For if any coin lost most or all of it's luster due to wear - it wouldn't be graded as AU to begin with. For that matter it wouldn't even be graded as XF.
kanga my commnets (we were apparently posting at the same time) should answer your questions. But you are making a mistake here - the Red, Red Brown, and Brown designations are not grades. Nor do they affect the numerical grade. They are merely special designations just like FBL, FB or FS. Special designations do not impact the grade at all.
In a perfect world no. But once again you run into eye appeal. When grading coins I look at these factors: Wear, Strike, Eye Appeal and Luster. If one color makes the coin more or less appealing to the eye then it is possibile that there might be a few points difference between coins but it really depends on individual coins.
Yeh, messages crossing in the mail. I'm satisfied that: - color alone doesn't (or at least shouldn't) affect the grading of a coin. - but color when tied to the subjective issue of eye appeal DOES affect the grading of a coin.
This is NOT the coin that prompted me to start this thread. But it will serve the purpose. This coin is graded PCGS MS-xx BN. Based upon our discussion the xx would NOT change if it had RB or Red color. The xx would ONLY change if eye appeal changed. And since eye appeal is subjective, this coin could be submitted several times and possibly get different grades if examined by different people.
I understand your point, but whether the coin is full red, partially red or full brown really doesn't change the eye appeal - at least in the eyes of professional graders. And remember, NGC & PCGS always use at least 3 people and sometimes 4 when grading a coin. And all of them must come to a consensus on the grade. So that subjectivity you mention about the color of the coin changing the eye appeal is greatly limited because 3 or 4 people are not all going to see color the same way. That brings us back to what has already been said - whether a copper coin is R, RB or BN does not affect the numerical grade.
Sorry, Doug, but I must disagree. If the color had no affect on the grade, I would expect at least most of the highest grades for both brown and red the same or at least similar. i.e., if the highest graded brown coin is MS66, then typically, the highest graded red coin should also be MS66. Using PCGS for all Lincolns from 1909 through all of the 1914's, only once did the highest graded even equal the red (1912-S), only once did the highest graded RB exceed the red (1912-S again), and the RB even equaling the red was definitely the exception not the rule. Not that I have as much experience as you, but that also jives with my general feeling on my coins. Maybe they say the the amount of red does not affect their opinion of the eye appeal, but that has not been my experience.
But it's not because they are Red Dick - it's because they (the Red ones) have more luster. Luster pretty much the determining factor in the upper grades - meaning anything 66 and above. Now it could be said it's because they are Red, but it really isn't. It's just that the RB and BN coins don't have the luster that the Red ones do. A fine point maybe, but when push comes to shove that's what it is.
