Artificial or Natural Toning on Morgan

Hi All, hope everyone had a awesome Easter! I know we have some really educated toning experts here and would like some schooling. I am very ignorant when it comes to spotting artificial vs natural. Could you awesome peeps have a look at this Morgan and tell me what you think? The coin is a bit more colorful in hand than the pic, hopefully the pics are good enough to make reasonable analysis. Thanks, you guys ROCK!

 

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There really is NOT a definition for either "Artificial" nor "Natural
" toning.

It is what the grading services say it is.

 

I have done extensive experimentation on silver tarnish... and I even developed a method so good - and fast - that it made me very cautious about all tarnished coins. Especially when I see so many straight graded, AT coins, in top tier TPG slabs. There are those individuals that can tell obvious AT coins...and some not so obvious. However, the good one's fool ALL the experts. That being said, your coin does appear (to me) to be naturally tarnished.

 

@RickO, I would be really interested in seeing a couple of examples of before & after coins you've toned/tarnished. Not asking for your method/recipe but the outcomes. Thanks,
Steve

 

Hi Steve,
I cleaned all my AT coins... and dismantled my device... have not done experiments for several years. I am sure the coin doctors today are even better than what I was able to produce, since there are so many in slabs now.... Sorry I could not show you anything, but I did not do those experiments for profit, just to understand tarnish.. at that time the rage for 'toning' was just exploding and I had two issues...one, I prefer blast white, as minted coins, and two, I have a need to understand things in detail - ergo, my experiments. I still cannot understand people paying these high premiums for what is - essentially - environmental damage.

 

@JAY-AR I'm not comfortable giving a solid answer with the amount of exposure in your pictures. With those pictures, I'd call it QT--questionably toned--leaning towards natural. Switch up your lighting set up a bit, don't have all the light focusing right on the focal point. Look how bright the cheek is compared to the rest of the coin--spread the light around. If this isn't possible (i.e. you only have one bulb that you're using) use different angles to give us a better idea of the in-hand appearance.

Malarkey! There are common patterns of coloration that certain metals and coin series can undergo in the right natural conditions, with no coin doctor required. There is a distinct difference in the colors that appear from a mint set that has toned in a sulfur envelope versus the same coins that are thrown into a potato inside of an oven.

To the trained eye the effects can be obvious. Here's what a quick eBay search yielded--all these fall firmly into the AT camp, and they're all raw, and all from the same seller--imagine that. (I'm not accusing the seller of being a coin doctor, but his inventory is filled with raw toned coins that all bear a similar toning pattern. That's a recipe for all the coins being AT at the very least. It should be noted that he does, however, have some NT examples, and makes it a point to list them as being naturally toned as well).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-S-TONE...255466?hash=item3d380b152a:g:P1UAAOSwc-tY7WvT




http://www.ebay.com/itm/1922-P-Peac...911800?hash=item41c22272f8:g:7iEAAOSwU8hY7VHb




http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-P-Peac...264297?hash=item21249e2369:g:A1sAAOSwmgJY7~81




Regardless of what a TPG would say about any of those coins, if one were to send them in and if they were graded and not BB'd, they'd still be AT. Those patterns of coloration are not natural to any coin series that I'm aware, and show variations of the effects reaped by adding heat to a coin.

Here are two threads over at CU where sunnywood explains the natural color progression cycles quite well.

https://forums.collectors.com/discu...nding-of-the-color-progression-on-toned-coins

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/716279/a-color-chart-for-the-thin-film-color-progression

Here's a thread here at CT by Jason Poe that explains the same basic concept

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-science-of-toning.84670/

There most certainly is a degree of objectivity to what is AT or NT, more than grading, in my opinion.

Maybe this is a dead horse for you, but why haven't you published your results? In a numismatic journal or otherwise? If you have a thread or detailed post over at CU concerning your experiments, I'd be much obliged to the link.

As to your other points, I'll agree. Some AT coins are in top tier TPG slabs, and sometimes even the best of us have difficulty with identifying them.

 

@tmoneyeagles ...Posts on my experiments are old... I was a member of CU even before the 2001 upgrade..... I wrote about my results there many times in the past. Never published an article... I am not a dealer, was a businessman up until I retired.
My point was, AT that is not detected is achievable with minimal effort... even what is called 'textile toning'...

 

Off your pictures I call that NT

 

Thanks guys, I'll try and post better photo's with better lighting, I did these in a bit of a rush before work this morning, all great info from you guys!

 

Hey, just for fun, what do think about grade?

 

There is no such thing as AT/NT. A coin is either market acceptable or not.

 

I'd buy what you're selling if the people, RickO for instance, who claim that they can make a coin look NT actually gave up the goods and posted some before and afters.

You've been at this longer than I have, so if you have a thread/post of someone showing the effects of their toning experiments, effects that make the coin indistinguishable from the effects of natural toning, I'd be much obliged.

Also, If you have examples, be they present or past, of sellers whom you suspect to be of the variety of "knowing what they're doing," fire at me.

 

People do not post this stuff in order to avoid the propagation of AT products.

 

IMHO the OP's coin is not natural. The different colors on the obverse and reverse is one + for natural. The tiny blue specks are a minus. Only he knows if it was stored someplace for a long time; nevertheless, I don't think it will straight grade.

 

tmoneyeagles: I'm afraid it's not Malarkey.

Perhaps it is easy to tell some artificial toning but it is simply impossible for them to tell what is natural toning or even agree on a definition.

I have owned many coins over the last 50 years than have toned naturally and have received AT status by the major TPG.

I had a silver eagle roll under my basement safe for 25 years and when recovered during a move it had toned gray on the side that was against the floor and rainbow on the side facing the air.

Was that artificially toned? How many years would it have to be there to be "natural"? What about laying copper on my oak windowsill?

Coins that I KNOW are not artificially toned are routinely slabbed as such.

This argument has been going on for many years

 

No disrespect to anyone here, and im not calling anyone a liar, with that said, ANY hillbilly can claim this or that. Im from Missouri, i want to see proof of someones shake & bake experiment that produces rainbow toned coins that are indistinguishable from a natural, bag toned Morgan for example. Ive heard doug say it a million times, and im not saying it cant be done, its just that-seeing is believing!!

 

Insider, I have no history of this coin, just received in the mail Monday. Like I said in the original post, I'm a bit ignorant on judging between natural or AT. It's very interesting to read the different responses and takes on toning. I understand it's a crap shoot when sent to a TPG. I will be sending to ANACS or possibly PCGS depending on the importance of the VAM. Thanks, all of you, for your input, it is really valuable to me!