In a discussion of the upcoming Baltimore Whitman show, one post mentioned the costs (exhibition space, hotel, airfare?, etc.) that bourse dealers had to absorb. My question is—for any given coin—if I buy from a dealer directly vs. buying it at a large show (e.g., Baltimore, Long Beacn, ANA convention, etc.), will I get a better price?
Well I would like to attend one just to comparison shop for the best coin. I mean if I can get to nice 64's(my opinion, same eye appeal, etc.) and one dealer has it cheaper than the other then I save a few dollars. Plus I personally think it is easier to deal with people in person to get a feel for them. One of these days I will make a major show. I just think if working in person with a dealer you might save a few dollars.
You need to include several more factors to get at that question so the answer is "it depends". Do you know the dealer and are you a regular customer? Dealer give better customers better deals, in person or at a show. What day of the show is it, for that matter what day of the month is it for the dealer outside of a show? Dealers on the last day of a show sometimes want to move some stuff out or "flip" some material just be rid of it. Dealers one on one may want to sell some stuff at the end of the month, or at the beggining - it just depends. What kind of day has the dealer had? A good day, bad in between? A good days sales may make him willing to lower a price, bad day hold out for more. What's the material being bought or sought? Is it common mint items, bulk coins or bullion, rare harder to find classic coins? The latter most dealers always hold on for better prices, the others they just may not want to carry home, seen it, done it. Many coins are never offered at a discount, whether at a show, shop or anyplace else - they don't have to be. The coin will sell itself, and example being say a PCGS AU-55 1922 "no "D" Lincoln or a MS-65 RD 1914-D, these coins never need to be discounted for any reason at all. Someone will come along and pay 25% over bid becuase they know they will not see them or be able to get them again "that nice" very soon. If you are asking about the fact a dealer's cost at a show are passed on because of overhead related to the show? On an individual coin dealers do not really expect to make their money from that - they, like I've said before make their money buying not selling coins at shows and generally during the first couple of days. Very few dealers would even attend a show if they could not trade amoung other dealers before and during the general public's attendance plus have better chances at buying than they do at home. If asking if you just pick up the phone a call or visit a dealer and because there is no show overhead would doing that you would get a better deal? I don't think so 50% to 75% of the time. Items that are in inventory and catologs that you may want to buy have a retail factor already built in for a hedge simply because like jewlery may be sitting there a long time. Again there is no answer for your question as asked but - buying wisely and knowing both your dealer and the market probably gets you the best prices on most items most of the time. In other words I don't think it has much to do with show overhead whether you will get a high priced coin verses a shop or site.
Thank you, bhp, for taking the time to put together such a well thought-out answer. The beauty of it is this - it reveals the complexity of the coin market. Simplistic questions rarely have meaningful answers. "All generalities are dangerous." - R.H. Grenier
There are a lot of variables but a good rule of thumb is you will pay more at a show. The difference is usually nominal and there are more opportunities and a much wider assortment at shows so collectors are still drawn to them. Dealers pay a little more at shows but it's well worth it to them since they get to see the coins first and some dealers can only buy at shows anyway. Shows have a lot of advantages to other venues and will probably always be popular.
bhp, thanks for such an insightful answer:hail:. Regarding overhead, at a recent national-level coin show, I was told by one of the major dealers in early copper coins that his overhead was invariably 10±1% over a number of years. That is a significant difference from most manufacturing organizations where overhead can be above 30%. I guess that the nicest thing about shows is that you can see the coin—as opposed to mail order or even interned sales where the photography can lead to misinterpretation.
From many, many years of going to large, medium, small coin shows I've found as a general rule the following. The larger the show, the higher the prices of everything there. Large coin shows are usually held in places that have higher table costs, higher parking fees, higher entrance fees and much, much more for everyone. The costs for dealers is usually much more for everything at a large show including their costs to just get there. Since most of these large shows are several days, hotels, motels, restaurants are also an added cost for dealers. Some dealers use these shows for sort of a time out for the family so they bring some with and that cost more also. Transportation, if by auto, is really something today with the price of gas. Also, you have to throw in wear and tear on the auto too. ALL of these costs have to come from somewhere and usually not from some just laying around money. The costs come from the sale of the coins. Obviously the margin of profit must be much greater than normal. Another item is if the dealer is from a far off place, they know they will probably never see you again so why not make as much profit as possible. Usually smaller coin shows are with dealers in the area and they don't have to spend all that mentioned above so their margin of profit is not necessarily so high. Many dealers at small coin shows are from a coin store in the area so the show itself is just a form of advertising thier store. And really cheap (reasonable) prices are a great insentive to visit their store. Most of these smaller shows have really cheap table prices since they are held in places such as Hotels or convention places that don't really need large profits from a one day show. Many of the dealers at small shows are repetitive so you really get to know them. This means too that they have a lot to loose if they overcharge you. At smaller shows the dealers will do a lot more for the individual customer since, again, they know they may see you at all of the future shows. And too, you may start bringing your kids so a future customer also. The only thing I've ever found better at large shows is the larger variety of coins available. But the larger prices just drive me away.
I've only been to smaller coin shows, and have always thought the prices were very much in line to what I'm accustomed to paying. If what some ofthe people are saying is true of the bigger shows, it's maybe not worth it for making a few major purchases. I would like to experience one though, and hope to this year.
When people ask questions like this they fail to realize one thing - it doesn't matter where you buy any given coin, prices are going to be all over the place. Talk to 10 different dealers at the same show about 1 particular coin and you will get 10 different prices. Talk to 10 different dealers at 10 different shops - and you will get 10 different prices. Talk to 10 different dealers on 10 different web sites - and you will get 10 different prices. The point is - the venue does not matter. The only thing that matters is the dealer and what the coin cost him. And as bhp tried to explain, there can be a hundred different variables involved in that alone. You can sometimes find the best deal at a show, a dealer's shop, on his web site or at an auction. You never know what you'll find or where you'll find it until you ask. And no matter what you pay, tomorrow or the next day, maybe next week - you'll see the same coin in the same condition for less money, and more money. So, if the coin you are looking at right now, no matter where that is, seems like a fair deal to you, then you buy it and move on. Bargain hunting will get you no where.
After reading the above responses, one word comes to mind - opportunistic. The coin market is opportunistic, both buying and selling. Know the market, know coins, and know the fellow on the other side of the table. That trifecta adds up to success for all parties involved. There is no single time or place which always yields great results. Beware of sweeping generalities ! Think through each situation on its own merits.
Also table to table. As a matter of fact that's where I've seen the most varied prices only cause then I can remember them at least for just a short time.
One of the best coin shows I go to for the best prices are the coin shows that are put on by my coin club. I get the best prices and I get there early. I have been a bit shocked to find out on this forum that at some coin shows the prices are discussed and to some degree conspired upon to sell high. That will certainly make me alert and unwilling to buy as much as I may have, had I not found that out. With that said, I will walk around and look rather than just not go. I mean we all have to make a living and expenses are accrued, but I'm sure that coin dealers are well aware of when they're asking too much for a coin. That's when the customer needs to step up and haggle to get a good deal. Well there's, nothing wrong with that.
Another observation I've made over the years is the ability to haggle, chew down prices at a coin show or anywhere. At large coin shows the haggling down of prices is really tuff. Dealers really don't see a great advantage in allowing you any great discount since they well know they probably will never see you again. Naturally haggling in a coin store too is difficult due to all the overhead that must be paid for from the profits of coin sales. And again, the larger the coin show, the least flexibility in a dealers pricing. A drop in 5 to 10 % on any sale is possible but not often. Too this depends on the amount of people roaming around in the show. A dealer knows if you don't buy it, one of those others may so why lower the price for you. Again, at smaller coin shows a dealer can easily see just how many possible customers are there already and full well know a sale is much better than none. Of course this works two ways. Many dealers at smaller shows raise their prices substancially knowing most will try to haggle the prices down anyway. All in all, regardless of the show, over the years of attending some really big shows, some rather medium sized shows and many really small shows, I don't see any comparisons. The smaller the show, the better the deals. The larger the show, the higher the prices. AND, if you have to throw in parking fees and admittance fees, add that to the cost of your coins. Great example is at the Rosemont Convention Center to park for a coin show is $11 and $5 to get in.
With the last few posts in mind, I could expand upon them a bit I guess. You could walk through a show and find ten different prices for the same coin in the same grade. Now the grade is strictly the opinion of the guy selling it. Then there's eye appeal...and toning. I guess if you are happy with the price on a particular coin or set of coins and make the purchase, there will be two happy people. There are times I pass on a purchase because I may not be in the buying mood, and two days later I could kick myself for not buying. I think just getting to a show and being among other coin enthuseists is part of the enjoyment.
While not directly related to the topic over the long haul it may effect prices. While attending the Baltimore Coin Show today I overheard at least five different dealers either talking about the flood of counterfeit coins into the market or were handling counterfeit coins. One conversation a dealer stated he'd buy this coin all day while the dealer next to him said it's "counterfeit no question about it." So add the cost of getting burned by counterfeits to the cost of doing business and it's only going to get worse.
