Any One Else Unlucky ?

Signed up for membership to PMG. Was told that there were 5 Free submissions and turn around time 28 days. After I sent off my notes their Web posted turn around time changed to 31 days then 48 days-51-days-71 days-79 days... The tracking shows they received the notes 2-3-12 and thats all it shows. Now I get a email from them stating that if I pay them $15 a note they can get them out to me in less than two weeks. If I don't pay who knows how long it will be. Is this not bait and switch? They have me hostage unless I pay.

Its approaching 3 months now with some valuable notes just sitting there in their storage. I write this post for two reasons (1) To warn anyone considering them to know that it may take forever to get them graded no matter what they tell you up front. (2) To see if this is a common practice experienced by others or did I just become the only unlucky one?

 

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Have you tried calling them and discussing with them what you are going through? If I got an e-mail like that I'd flip.

 

I don't know anyone at PMG. This is only a wild guess, but why don't you call NGC, 800-642-2646, and ask to speak to Mark Salzberg (spelling?). Mark is the president of NGC, and maybe he can address your concerns or point you in the right direction since they are part of the same corporate structure.

Chris

 

Oh my

I completely understand how you could feel " baited " by this offering, and I too would suggest you contact PMG to let them know exactly how this business concept comes across to new members. As the old saying goes " nothing is for free " , theres always a hook at the end of that carrot .

 

No, I feel more like calling the Attorney General. At this juncture-based on their email to me wanting money after I paid a large membership fee--I don't think they could offer me an excuse.. I forgot to mention that along with the free ones I sent a World note that I paid for and it flew back to me in less than 2 weeks. Money always talks..Considering the time so far if I could go back I would have just paid them up front. But now, I feel cheated using this company. I can see any company getting behind, but apparently they have the ability if one sends money.

 

I'd own that place if they pulled anything like that on me. I'd call and make them refund my startup costs and threaten to sue. That's completely 100% illegal by all means. I'd force them to write me a nice fat check as a settlement for time loss, frustration, and being held hostage as your notes sit only god knows where. That's just me though. I don't allow people or businesses to pull crap like that on me. They told you that they would have it back to you in 28 business days, hold them to their word.

 

This is the first time I've ever heard of PMG doing something like this. Generally they are good at keeping their turnaround times. Well generally. I heard it's gotten worse with both them and PCGS this year.

 

Stop the whining! Your luck will only improve here, where you have come to complain, when someone does the work for you to point out your impatience and misunderstanding of turn around times with PMG, which are clearly stated on their web page, as "estimates"...

Now please read along with me as we go over the published terms posted on the PMG's web site...

1st) Take notice of the column that says "ESTIMATED TURNAROUND" It is standard to be ESTIMATED at "28 WORKING DAYS", which would be PMG's days of business operation, since they indicated receiving your submission, on 2/3/12. Consider yourself lucky they even inform you by updating their current turnaround times. The volume of work they receive daily and which may be there the same day ahead of your order varies. There is no way they can write in stone and hold to any fixed time frame, more than quoting their customers an estimate, which is a guess at best based on previous work flow knowledge.

2nd) Look at the column of information to the right of "ESTIMATED TURNAROUND", it states clearly, for Economy and Economy Special service rates (Bulk submission 'varies' and is currently marked '113 working days'), the "CURRENT TURNAROUND" time is "78 working days". Again, as you noticed, this number changes, so get used to it. It is part of the way PMG operates so your patience is required when you submit your numismatic items to professionals which you expect professional results from.

Now time to do some math... How many "working days" has it been since 2/3/12? [Here is a convenient time calculator for you to use on Time & Date.]

From and including: 3 February 2012 --> To, but not including, 20 April 2012, it has been 77 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date.

However, if we count by "working days" taken to mean a Monday to Friday work week, by most standards, then it has been.... Drum roll please!!!... 55 working days, perhaps a day less minus 2/20/2012 for President's Day, should PMG have decided to take a "working day" off for the holiday within your noted submission time frame.

When you have learned how to interpret turnaround times and adjust to "estimates", that continually vary, then I'm sure your luck will start to improve! Or you can buy notes that are already finished grading so you don't have to wait for them. I would suggest saving your time and effort to complain until 78 working days have passed. Alternatively, you may decide to write to the helpful folks on the PMG forum, at the appropriate time, Ask PMG.
:hail: Also...

This is not a case of, "bait and switch", there's no, "hook in the carrot", nor would you, "own that place"... especially not given the level of ignorance on display here for grossly misunderstanding and incorrectly interpreting what their turn around times actually are, estimates, timely guesses provided to customers of this company, which can and DO change, and are posted for your information.

 

kinda tough comments, there.


Instead of blasting, a nice note explaining the 'working days' seems to be a better way to comment.

Instead of : "Stop the whining! ".

 

Stop your own whining, Frank. You obviously have nothing to add to this topic that's actually on-topic, but to come here and yourself judge the way something was stated. As you don't particularly post in the Paper Money forum it is easy to see you have little to contribute here. Besides, you're hardly one to parade around as some sort of angel when it comes to how people respond to other people's posts.

As a long time member of this forum site you should be aware, that an enormous amount of threads started on the greater CT forum, are more often than not, irrational rants, people venting, whining or complaining about any number of matters that they failed to fully understand before getting involved in something. Many, many, many times, these kinds of threads have shown that someone simply didn't read terms fully, overlooked terms, misinterpreted terms, or they skipped further investigating their own inquiry before starting up a thread. They come to forums feeling like they were being slighted by some company or system, thus soliciting the sympathy of others in their self-imposed dejection. This is all done in erroneous ignorance and ensues a general ill-will, often paired with a bashing of such-n-such company.

 

Harsh words all around.

I found the OP to be insightful and as a new collector, I'll think twice before sending anything, coin or paper, to be graded.

These are the sort of wait times I have come to expect from the government, not a private, for profit corporation. I don't think "You should consider yourself lucky..." is an appropriate response to someone who is frustrated by their business incompetence, regardless of what the fine print on their web site says.

Yes, I called them incompetent. They might be great at grading collectible currency, but they obviously suck at business.

[/rant]

 

"...suck at business." well, that's one opinion, just your own, and while you're more than entitled to hold onto any opinion you like, it couldn't be further from the truth (as opinions are want to be) because PMG shows no such evidence as to be failing in their business, in fact, standing as one of the top two industry leaders in this business which you arrogantly declare "sucks". So much for the opinions of the "instant gratification" folk... As suggested, those who can't wait, can select to buy previously graded notes which you need not wait to be graded and returned to you.

 

I know they are a successful business, and I expected as much in a reply. But profit alone isn't the only measure of competence, especially when there's a very good possibility that you could be more profitable AND serve your customers better.

...and no, I'm not one of those "instant gratification folk". One of my other hobbies is shooting. As such, I have a lot of guns. I also own a couple of silencers that I was willing to wait six months to receive. I can understand waiting six months when I'm dealing with a government entity/policy that was created to discourage ownership, but not when I'm dealing with a private/for profit corporation.

 

By these replies you are only expressing your unawareness with this particular company. Your comments demonstrate that you do not understand this company's work flow, the uncertain quantity of incoming submissions, those arriving via: mail from individuals or bulk submission from dealers and auction firms, those from any number of numismatic convention submissions, "walk-ins" and the impact on 'turnaround times' for each of those, all of which are requested at different service levels, and that are graciously updated for customers, not hidden in "fine print", but rather, publicly published online, in easily found locations, together with their service "estimates". Your comments suggest that you haven't much familiarity with what actually goes into banknote grading, the research which may be done, the size of the companies grading staff and commitment to accuracy and what it means for such a "failing" company to stand behind a successful guarantee. It's a successful guarantee which has built a strong reputation as an industry leader. So, if you can understand the wait for objects from your other hobby, then learning more about this one will bring you to similar understanding.

 

Perhaps... As I said, I'm new to collecting. More than anything PMG did, what set me off most was your comment "Consider yourself lucky they even inform you by updating their current turnaround times..." When a business gives me an "estimate" for anything, and that "estimate" later triples, I don't "consider myself lucky". Unless of course that company offers some sort of an apology or compensation.

I find it mildly amusing that you say I don't understand how much research and effort goes into grading, and you seem to worship this company that supposedly does, but with all that knowledge and wisdom, they've still managed to triple a time estimate they provided to a paying customer? Maybe what's needed here are fresh perspectives. People who are new to the industry. People who can look past their reputation to see there's a problem with the way they're doing business.

Here's one business concept they would do well to heed: Underpromise and overdeliver.

I read about a Japanese company a little while back that quoted a customer 30 days for some custom milled parts. They were delivered 5 days before the deadline. Included with the parts was an apology. Their normal policy is to have parts delivered 30% ahead of schedule, but the tsunami caused delays.

A tsunami is an unforseen event. Fluctuations in workload are not. I realize that Steve probably sent his items in, and since then, they've had a surge in customers who are willing to pay for priority service. That happens. But IMHO, reputable companies do everything they can to ensure their customers like Steve, who already sent items in, do not experience unreasonable changes in their estimated wait times.

You say they're reputable. A lot of people probably agree with you. As for the majority of their business practices, I'd likely agree with you too. But this problem they have with scheduling, and how they're handling it, is something reputable companies do not do.

 

Lest you forget, this "failing" company has it's own policy, which each customer should read and understand the terms of before initiating a submission for services to be rendered. By submitting to the company you create a contract for 'guarantee services', not a guarantee to perform said services in a set period of time. For that, there is no explicit guarantee made, merely an estimate is given. The OP does not appear to understand this, nor do successive members who posted about this. How a company chooses to run their business, is their choice, and whether you decide to agree to those terms and do business with them has no bearing on what determines their success or failure. Only your opinion may be raised to pass inaccurate judgements that they are failing in some manner. If you think you can do better with your fresh perspective, then by all means, show us how it's done, amuse us if you will... And when you do start your company, with that rock solid turnaround time as part of your guarantee, don't forget that your competition, PMG, has determined that giving an estimate for turnaround, which is a guess -- not a guarantee, is much less important to its success, to it's reputation and to it's customers satisfaction with their grading standards, but that the 'guarantee' from this company is worth waiting for. That is what customers are paying them for, accuracy, not rapid turn around. If you want something fast, it's not likely to be cheap and if it is, it's not likely to be of much quality.

 

Like I said before, the OP should call the company, if he hasn't already, and seek an explanation, not from a customer service rep, but the president of the company or at least the vice president of operations.

I've often read about lengthy turnaround times and the submitters who fly off the handle, talk about civil litigation, etc. etc. yet they don't make any attempt to resolve the problem by getting it "straight from the horse's mouth" before going to such extremes.

I find the comment about the additional charge of $15 per note to expedite the submission quite surprising, and it may be possible that we aren't being told the entire story. I don't know, but I've been submitting coins and notes to NGC/PMG for about 8 years, and I've never, never had a problem that couldn't be resolved by a simple phone call.

Chris

 

Chris, There's no reason to call the company, the turn around estimate is not guaranteed -- says so right at the top of the submission form:

Printable version (148 kb .pdf)

The above form is on this page: here

So, that time frame can and does change, until then, the OPs notes are safe in the vaults of PMG awaiting processing.

The $15 charge does not sound unlikely if making a change to an existing submission. I do see on the submission form that it indicates certain instances when they will charge $10 for a change and may have included the handling fee (per invoice of $5, not per note), but we don't know yet the case of the OP's notes, what was submitted, nor what specifically he requested service wise that may impact that figure and result in $15 more be charged to any such changes.

Nothing is remotely sinister nor hidden to deceive the OP in this matter.

 

I fully understand that the turnaround time is only an estimate, and I'm also aware that it is also possible to change the terms of any submission. That's why I don't think we've heard the entire story. With that said, if the OP has not made any changes, then I think he is due an explanation.

To be honest, I've seen this type of rant numerous times over the years, and most often it is unfounded and caused by an impatient customer. I wonder if he even bothered to use the "Ask" forum on the NGC site before flying off the handle.

Personally, I don't let the turnaround times bother me. Nobody can predict how many submissions will be received at the same time. I'll get mine when they're finished. I would much rather see them take their time, do everything right and not make any mistakes.

Chris