This came in today...after a double take on Louie 7th, i believe i now have one o Louie 6th.. he's know for getting the nobles in line during his reign..so this rabbit hole i picked for this round is quite interesting...(i was gonna put this in MM but...its tuesday 9_9) POST YOUR COINS COMMENTS PEEPS! denier De Orleans, Louis VI (The Fat) 1108-1137, legends Ob: LVDOVICSVS REX I, Rv: AVRELIANIS CIVITAS. 19mm, 0.98gms
That's a Really. Solid. Example, @ominus1. I don't have pics of mine of Orleans from the same reign ...and compared to yours, no one's missing a whole lot. But here's one in the name of Hugh, a son of Robert I (996-1031) who predeceased him, and was viscount of Orleans, c. 1010-1025. "H Y [/V] G O" shows up, a letter at a time, in the fields of the obverse. --Along with a border legend which makes no sense to me, other than as a late blundering of the single most common Carolingian one, "GRATIA D-I REX." ...Inviting the guess that, both on anonymous issues later in the 11th century, and the ones in the name of Louis VI and VII, the letters in the same field are reducible to the same sort of thing. (Duplessy, Feodales 522). And here's an example of the first issue of Orleans to be in the name of a reigning king, Philip I, 1060-1108. ...So what the heck. Thanks to your Louis thread that this one continues, most of my Louis -es, ending with IX, got uploaded just lately. But for other Capetians, here are a couple, to either side of Louis VI. The first one is a denier of Hugh's dad, Robert I, a coissue with Adelberon, bishop of Laon 977-1030. ...Yeah, there's some interesting overlap between royal and feudal issues, especially episcopal ones. (And Yes, they're pretty awful.) Continuing the same theme, here's one of Philip II (1180-1223), also of Laon, this time coissued with Roger de Rosoi, Bishop 1174-1201. ...Except, Oh, Rats, I can't find pics of that one. But it continues the dual facing portraits. Instead, here's one from the same reign, reflecting Philip's temporary custody of the barony of Deols, during the heiress's minority. Even as late as this, there was the same kind of dialectic happening between royal and feudal dynamics. ...This is why I have to love the French stuff this much; the correspondence between the coins and the history is this marked and, in a sense, this intimate. Legends: (from 5 o'clock: ) FILIPVS REX; (rev.: ) +DE DOLIS ('S' couchant). It's getting late for people on the east coast; probably time to shut up for a minute.
Uh-oh, now I'm scared, because it has to be time to repost my god-awful one of Hugh the Great. ...Well, at least according to Legros (94), although Duplessy (Feodales, 6) still attributes it to Hugh Capet (king 987-996), but as "Duc des Francs," 956 until his accession in 987. And, why not, here's my less ambiguous one of Hugh Capet, another episcopal coissue, this time with Herve, bishop of Beauvais 987-998. --Both of these were found on Delcampe, unattributed as the driven snow, or you wouldn't be seeing them here. (...Duplessy, Royales no. 1.) Obv. (from 11 o'clock: ) HERVEVS HVGO REX; Rev. (with degraded 'CAROLVS' monogram, also from 11 o'clock: ) BELVACVS CIVITAS. ...My one all-time go-to source for the history is Jean Dunbabin, France In the Making: 843-1180. It made it to two editions, of which I only have the first, but the second one mainly just expands the bibliography. Yep, there's other good stuff, even in English, but that one is still my all-time favorite.
There are some nice silver deniers, in this thread. I find it interesting, the relationship, between the French silver deniers, and the silver deniers of other countries, and the English silver pennies. Recently, I managed to acquire this silver denier, from the reign of Charles III The Simple (898 AD to 922 AD). I like the colorful nicknames, that many of the French kings had, during the Dark Ages and Middle Ages. For example : Pepin The Short : 751 AD To 768 AD Louis The Pious : 813 AD To 840 AD Charles The Bald : 875 AD To 877 AD Charles III The Simple : 898 AD To 922 AD Louis VI The Fat : 1108 AD To 1137 AD Here are the seller photos, of my silver denier. Note the retrograde legend "CARLVS REX R" on the obverse side. Retrograde letters, and even entire retrograde legends, happened occasionally on silver deniers, because of human error. France. Charles III The Simple. Carolingian Dynasty. AG Denier. 898 AD To 922 AD. Metalo (Melle) Mint. Depeyrot 629. 21.0 mm. 0.95 grams. Obverse Cross Inside Retrograde Legend "CARLVS REX R". Reverse "METALO" (Melle) Mint.
Super nice example, @ominus1, congrats!! I have a denier of his from Étampes... dunno much about this mint (seller's photo makes the coin look pink, it isn't!):
@sand, that's freaking brilliant, with the retrograde obverse legend. Never once saw that on an example of this issue. Loving it. Except, you're owed the caveat that these issues of Melle were immobilized into the 12th century. Duplessy (Feodales 906-919) has done the most of anyone I've seen to assign approximate dates on the basis of the numerous, minor variations. ...Except, your (VERY cool) retrograde legend leaves me scratching my head.
@Severus Alexander, that's a fine example. I have a couple, posted too recently to upload. But there are a couple of cool things about the issue. The monogram on the obverse is a free adaptation of the ERBERTVS monogram of Herbert I, count of Maine c. 1015-1035 (funly contemporaneous to Cnut). Another instance of how the early Capetian kings acknowledged the ongoing feudal realities on the ground, numismatically as well as otherwise. --Also immobilized forever; into the 13th century. Here's one example of an earlier immobilization, from later in the 11th century (Duplessy, Feodales 397). ...As a mint, Etampes is cool for being the site of a castle, probably built by Louis VII, with a pioneering, "transitional" keep design, midway between keeps that were still rectangular and ones that were circular. The Wiki article links to some good pictures, including plans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Château_d'Étampes
Thanks @+VGO.DVCKS Also, thank you for pointing out, the fact, that this coin type was immobilized. After reading your comment, I remembered reading something, about the design being immobilized. I'm still a "newb", when it comes to silver deniers. I find the retrograde legend quite interesting. I searched ACsearch, and I didn't find any examples of this coin type, with an entire retrograde legend.
Rats. @sand, you sent me back to Depeyrot (2008 ed.) and Nouchy, the only two serious references I have for Carolingians. Duplessy (Feodales) doesn't list any immobilizations with the pellet in the "O" of "METALO;" I was hoping that would be a clue as to whether your example was really of Charles. But even there, no luck. ...For both later Carolingian and early feudal issues, my takeaway is that there were just too many variations to have Ever gotten published. As you pointed out, the die engravers were really improvising as they went along. ...Still really liking that retrograde legend.
@+VGO.DVCKS By the way, after your comments, I decided to weigh and measure the coin, for myself, rather than relying on the seller description. I had suspected, that the coin was significantly larger than 18 mm, and I was correct. The correct weight and maximum diameter of the coin, are as follows. I edited my post above, to correct the weight and maximum diameter. The coin is incredibly thin. Weight = 0.95 grams Maximum Diameter = 21.0 mm
@sand, the diameter is enough to make me sit up in my chair. Duplessy is no help with weights of the immobilizations, but my guess is that yours is still easily in range of being contemporaneous to Charles. ...And, Yes, from late Carolingian to early French feudal, they're All incredibly thin. That's even in comparison to contemporary English and German issues. ...Which is saying something. It's terrific to see people like you and @ominus1 getting this invested in this stuff, subjectively as well as otherwise. ...Just over the last year or so, with lots of good help from @Darius590, I've started getting into Sasanian drachms (/drahms) on a similar level. Thanks to him, I'm rediscovering how much fun it is to go someplace completely new and different, and embark on a brand new learning curve. For me, anyway, it had been too long.
Louis VI the Fat as seen by popular French cinema (Jean-Marie Poiré's "Les Visiteurs", 1993) An anachronism festival. The king's hairdo and crown are typical of the 14th c., his chair is typically late 19th c. and his guards' shields are painted with the coat of arms of the 15th-16th c. kings of... England (but I liked the movie, it was a funny comedy).
Thanks for the reminder, @GinoLR. It's a truly great movie, even with the embarrassingly Hollywoodesque anachronisms. One of the few I'd see again. I love when the seigneur 'slays' the car (after the driver's run away).
