And another leontini obvious fake on auction

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by pprp, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. PeteB

    PeteB Well-Known Member

    I'll go out on a limb and say, from the photo alone, it looks authentic....to my old 88 year old eyes, It has the usual flaw behind the eye on the obverse, and the beginning of the die deterioration of the lower hair over the lower ear...much worse in other examples I have seen. So, "fairly fresh" dies.
    What are the "obvious" fake signs to you?
     
  4. Colby J.

    Colby J. Active Member

    I thought the hair looked too detailed. And the surface looks antiqued. But that's just my opinion I have no idea if it's factual
     
  5. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Supporter! Supporter

    From Forum’s FCR : “Struck from modern dies taken from genuine specimens of a big hoard of the early 1980s”.

    E384DC70-CB33-4042-9F6E-75A6CA4A22EA.jpeg
     
    panzerman likes this.
  6. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    After studying at least 500 of these I can immediately recognise a fake. This particular one passed from a Roma Numismatics esale of 2015 and is fake beyond any doubts.
     
  7. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    Photo courtesy of lamoneta confronto.thumb.jpg.bac0f808338a8a449d85f1fb38030f4a.jpg
     
    Sulla80 and Curtisimo like this.
  8. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    The 2 that you posted, I located the auction houses and haven't heard of (not that I've been collecting long). Are these new auction houses making short cash or just new, unaware and buying from unwholesome sellers or something else?
    And how do you tell them so that they remove it?
     
    Numisnewbiest and Curtisimo like this.
  9. Lolli

    Lolli Active Member

    The coins published in bulletin on counterfeits Vol 21 No.2 1996 do not have the die flaw right to Apollo´s eye ! The coins used for comparison as genuine example has this die flaw. It is not clear if the transfer die fakes had an authentic coin as host from really fresh dies before this die flaw right to the eye appeared in the dies or if this die flaw was removed in the transfer dies. Authentic coins with and without this die flaw do exist! But I am only aware of fakes without this die flaw.

    To rely on others without verifiying or being qualified to verify their arguments is stupid.

    This bulletin reports are of course at best resource for fakes at forgery network

    http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=N1u9b9bB6yE=

    http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=mNIlQXSAVTs=

    http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=aC83RIlevTA=

    Bulletin.jpg leont.jpg
     
  10. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    Gadoury is an old auction house and I don't think anyone could blame them for the SNG ANS 234 they have on sale. It is a VERY convincing fake which would fool any auction house; it is also not commonly offered. I wait for Barry Murphy to offer his view, but in fact the only unknown parameter for me is whether the committee which condemned the coin based on stylistic differences changed afterwards their opinion.

    MDC is new auctioneer and I guess they relied on the ROMA provenance. The SNG ANS 257 is the most common and quite convincing fake circulating. However, there is big experience in the area and huge threads written in many fora about it and it is quite easy to pick out the fake ones after 30 years of their first circulation. This is really non-forgivable especially since ROMA has asked acsearch to disable comments for their auction; if I remember well it was already tagged there as fake.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
    Paul M. and Ryro like this.
  11. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    I don't know to whom you refer. Your post introduces noise without offering an opinion about the coin I posted.
     
  12. Lolli

    Lolli Active Member

    Why are they supposed to be fake? Real Arguments would be appreciated, only because one member Gionnysicily on lamoneta suspects them needn t mean that they must be fake, for me his opinion and "arguments" are not convincing. They are not related to the published fakes in bulletin on counterfeits and I do not see any obvious problems condemning them as fakes.
     
    Roman Collector likes this.
  13. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    Since you believe in arguments, what is your opinion about this Kentoripai your dearest Dr sold as ex early Hess for 700+ Euros? s-l400.jpg s-l400 (1).jpg
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  14. Lolli

    Lolli Active Member

    Kentoripai was sold as fake and it is a cast fake with artificial patina.

    "Beim vorliegenden Stück handelt es sich um eine Nachamung des Ende 19./ Anfang 20. Jhd,."

    https://www.ebay.de/itm/303321352942

    In English a reproduction from end of 19 or beginning of 20 century.

    Even in titel it is state that it is modern

    LANZ GREEK KENTORIPAI AE LITRA 19./ 20. JHD CA. 344-336 BC KENTORIPAI µPR71


    Not sure why they bid so high it was clearly stated that the coin is fake. If it is an old or new fake is a different story and without Hess pedigree I would have thought modern fake.
    What has this to do with Leontinoi?
    And what does this has to do with Lanz?
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  15. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    It is relevant because sometimes you reject all arguments or opinions so easily but when it comes to the Dr you are so cool... Where does he say that it is sold as a fake? https://www.ebay.de/itm/LANZ-GREEK-...HD-CA-344-336-BC-KENTORIPAI-PR71/303321352942 how can this be from early 1900 when the fake dies are from the 1980? Where did the Hess ticket come from and how is it connected to the Kentoripai coin he sold? I wish now good luck to the collector who was unfortunate enough to buy it. Edit: indeed he said it was reproduction but the Google auto translation of the page does not translate into this. So that's why it sold that high. This doesn't change the rest... He also sold this earlier in a floor auction
    1310555.jpg

    For the Leontini I obviously agree with the arguments presented in lamoneta and in forum although the owner there decided to delete a lot of discussions. I do not want to educate nor to convince anyone. The evidence is clear if you observe the photos closely. Such coins have been withdrawn from sales. I just wanted to alert any unaware potential buyers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
    Orfew likes this.
  16. RichardT

    RichardT Active Member

    I am unfamiliar with the series but I do find the artistry appealing, and so I would have liked to add an example to my collection one day. So I was following this thread hoping to learn a little bit about how to identify the struck fakes that can even fool the auction houses.

    Personally I cannot tell the difference between the real and fake examples shown in the bulletin, except that the style is very slightly different. I suppose the safest thing to do (for a non-expert like me) is to stay away from these, unless they have a provenance to before 1996.
     
  17. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    Ok if there is interest I will explain later in a post. It is important that you try to feel the difference yourself. Compare to this one which sold on September for example 00016Q00.jpeg
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  18. Lolli

    Lolli Active Member

    "Beim vorliegenden Stück handelt es sich um eine Nachamung des Ende 19./ Anfang 20. Jhd,."

    Nachamung is German word for "fake" (reproduction), and I copied this from description.

    Even in link is "19-20-JHD" which means 19-20 Jahrhundert , Jahrhundert is century.

    "how can this be from early 1900 when the fake dies are from the 1980?"

    What are you talking about?
    All of these Kentoripai fakes are either cast fakes and mother was authentic like in this case or transfer die fakes taken from authentic mother. No Kentoripai fakes from modern hand cutted dies are known to me and I think that I am pretty familiar with sicilian fakes. It is compeltetly meaninlyless when some transfer die fakes entered the market because this coin is a cast fake and not related to them. I have seen many of these Kentoripai fakes on picture or in hand and you can easily recognized the fakes due to artificial patina. Although the Kentoripai cast fakes and transfer die fakes of have a different patina the cast fakes often have a black patina and the transfer die fakes a green or red patina.


    Lanz.jpg


    You do not have any arguments why this Leontinoi tetradrachms are supposed to be fake and you do not seem to have any, because then you would have posted them here. For me they look fine and I am familiar with this Leontinoi issue and with Sicilian fakes and fakes itself and my feeling concering fakes is extremely reliable and imho much better than yours ^^.
     
  19. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    So this is to summarize several different discussions in fora and in private. The hoard of the SNG ANS 257 leontini tetradrachms (aka wet hair Apollo) were discovered most probably in 1986. It is quite safe to say that all were buried immediately after minting so they have no wear because of circulation. The differences observed are due to the different states of the dies and the corrosion which hit the coins on the surface of the hoard. Old specimens from old auctions and museum collections are all pretty much worn. If you are further interested, in lamoneta you can find:

    1. A collection of photos from old provenanced specimen
    2. A study of the deterioration of the dies.

    In short, the die break in the eye of Apollo + the hair is not a diagnostic of genuine coins. Coins with round instead of sharp edges are most probably fakes and if you notice this a common characteristic of the fakes published above. Then the metal surface is a give away. If you study enough photos you will immediately recognize the wrong ones. There are also arguments on the number of dots of the dotted border but these are not widely endorsed so I will comment any further.

    Finally, the coin I posted is originating from ROMA who are collaborators of Lanz and hence Lolli has again another obvious CoI so this would explain his sudden pop up for an otherwise obvious case of a fake.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
    RichardT likes this.
  20. Lolli

    Lolli Active Member

    Who said that all Leontinoi tetradrachms must be from the same hoard? How do you know that there has been only one hoard ? I assume looters went on searching and found later 1 or more Leontinoi hoards.
    The plachets of Leontinoi tetradrachms differ pretty much even from coins from the same dies and authentic coins with such round planchets with part of the casting channel (sprue) do exist so this does not prove anything. The flaw right to the eye seems to appear in the dies at a late die state while the dies show already some significant die wear at fine details like hair so this detail loss is realated to late die state and not to related to detail loss you can find on transfer die cast or electrotype fakes. Again I know the Lamoneta posts and they are not convincing !
    But I of course understand that you only accept "arguments and opinions that confirm your doubts on this coins like the posts on lamoneta.

    Different Leon. issue but similar flan

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/resea...?assetId=1613025252&objectId=1295104&partId=1

    http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.8540

    Same issue and same round flan but with edge cracks

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/resea...?assetId=1613025271&objectId=1295085&partId=1

    http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.8556
     
  21. RichardT

    RichardT Active Member

    Thanks very much pprp and all who posted in this thread. I think I understand a little better now.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page