Ancients: Elymais coins confuse me

It has been a couple months since I got a set of '12 different' coins of Elymais from the back of a Frank Robinson list. After a very little study of the subject I could accept 11 of them as different with the 12th being rather close to one of the others. For years I have owned the skinny little book on Elymais by deMorgan but was told that it was out of date so I bought the new Catalogue of Elymaean Coinage by P.A. van't Haaff. Never have I owned a book requiring more skills in 'flyspecking' minor differences to attribute coins less certainly. In a few cases, my best efforts with van't Haaff led to ID to a different ruler than with deMorgan but usually they agreed at least a little bit.

I seek contact with others having interest in these coins (purchasers of Robinson lots or old timers) who would b willing to discuss or trade tips in reading the coins and understanding why one dot seems significant and another does not. I post this here to see if there is anyone here of any level interest (although owning van't Haaff would seem helpful). While I'd love an expert to hold my hand here, I'd be happy to have someone else trying to begin a path to understanding these coins.

I'm starting just by taking a random coin and seeing what I can find.


Comparing the coin to plates in deMorgan, I settled on Plate III,5 a coin of Phraates. Working similarly in van't Haaff, I settled on Orodes II Type 13.3 subtype 2-2a possibly example d. The hat has a dot rather more like the example of subtype 2-1a d but my coin has a single top bar on the anchor in place of the double required by that ID. These conflicts make me suspect I'm missing something. I gather that van't Haaff discounted the reverses altogether in separating these dot reversed coins so all the ID points are on the obverse. Of my 12 coins, this is the one with the worst reverse but I am reading it as nothing but dots rather than a poor specimen of a more complex design.

Is anyone interested here? I have 11 more of these (some IDed easily IMHO - some not). Should I continue this thread here or find another venue?

 

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I'm as confused as you are...

I've got 7, which I really need to take pictures of...



All are cataloged with:

GIC-XXX

Like:
Orodes I, 2nd cent AD, GIC-5892, bust left/Artemis bust r


What does GIC stand for?

 

Sear, Greek Imperial Coinage and their Values has about four pages of Elymais following the Parthian section. I can't say that many of the ID's match up well with more recent theories but I have not convinced myself of any of the datings on these. It might be that there was considerable overlap on some of the kings and relatively few have legends that help with attributions. These are mysterious coins.

 

Doug - I think I have the book, but I have no coins of the area and have thus not had a chance to use it. I'll have a look through tonight. You should check out the review: http://ansmagazine.com/Summer08/Elymaean

 

Is this similar to yours? It clearly reads King Orodes but there may be discussion as to the Roman numeral appropriate. I have had this one for years but never really studied the questions.

 

I have the coins, both books, but not so much the time Doug. I will try to pull out the volumes tonight to see if I agree.

My general understanding is the author believes some dots or dashes are just random, others are minimalistic renditions of an object, if that makes sense.

 

That is a nice one. My favorite reverse type on these coins.

 

Yes, it is...

Here's a total list I have including all of the information:

ELYMAIS
Æ Drachms
gF to VF
Attractive highlighted green patinas
Picked from hoard (catalogued in Sear, “Greek Imperial Coins” ):

Orodes I, GIC-5892, bust left/Artemis bust r
Orodes I, GIC-5893, rev Artemis & cornucopia, scarce
Orodes I, GIC-5895, rev anchor & dashes
Phraates, GIC-5899, rev Artemis stg r
Phraates, GIC-5902, rev dashes
Orodes II, GIC-5905, rev dashes
Orodes III, GIC-5907 Artemis bust

I prefer the Artemis

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1633&pos=0 (not mine)

 

I don't shop F. Robinson and I am not an "Old Timer" but I would like to learn, whatever it is to learn, I hope I can get in on this.

Does the script actually say anything? I was under the impression that the script is blundered Greek. Is that true? Only true for some rulers? Or not true at all.

I have but one Elymais coin...

Kingdom of Elam
King KAMNASKIRES VI Late 1st cent BC to early 1st century AD
Billon Tetradrachm 16.10 g x 29 mm
obv: diademed bust of king right
rev: male bust left with garbled legend
ref: Seaby 5889 (I have not verified this attribution, because I do not have this text)

I was able to confirm the attribution based on like coins for sale. When I say like coin, what I mean is having the same obverse and reverse devices and portraits.

 

Is this from the area that is modern-day Kuwait?

 

Close, and they may have overlapped but Elam was it SW Iran. The kingdom of Characene was in what is now modern Kuwait.

 

Yeah. Characene was the flat marshlands. Elam is an ancient kingdom, in the near highlands of Iran off the Tigris Euphrates valley. Its about halfway up the Iraq/Iran border right on todays modern borders. They had a long history of conflict with Mesopatamia, and like I said is an ancient kingdom. It is in the Bible quite a bit in the old testament.

 

I'm very interested in this thread, although I won't be able to contribute anything substantial. The Parthians have been on my "to do" list for a little while, so I'll start reading up.

 

Parthians can be tough to find at times. Coincidentally, CNG just listed a nice run of them in their current e auction.

 

I'm not in the market for any of these coins at the moment, but I am very interested in the history, as it spills over into the Arabian Peninsula. I've pulled out John Lindsay's A View of the History and Coinage of the Parthians for a start. But I'm going to bow out now so as not to hijack the thread.

 

To truly understand how Parthian power did not end with the fall of the house of Arsaces, I highly recommend "Decline and fall of the Sasanian empire". Love that book, it really cleared up ancient Persia for me.

 

Kamnaskires-Orodes
VH 12.3 subtype 1-2A2 e
note the dot between anchor and bust


Orodes II
VH 13.1 subtype 1-2
none of the examples in the book match the legends very well


Orodes II
VH 13.2 subtype 1-2B
The word Bacileyc on reverse is clear for these making me think I have not IDed this correctly.

VH says the reverse is the god Belos with no facial features.

 

Ok - this discussion seems to be a one lane road.
If it supposedly says "Basilws" then why would it be a God? Shouldn't it be the Face of a king?

 

AN, the attribution you made of your coin seems correct, but I'm only comparing it to the Elymais page at Parthia.com...

http://www.parthia.com/parthia_coins_elymais.htm

It seems you Elymais collectors have the same issue that Nabataean collectors have with certain kings: we don't even know if they existed, never mind exact reigning dates.

 

The face of the king is on the other anepigraphic side. The coin belongs to that king. I'm not sure how they decided who that reverse was but the theory is that it is the Zeus equivalent god in their system. It looks more like a snail to me.