A lesson in "Buy the Coin, not the Slab"

Take a good look at this coin I bought last April from a reputable dealer, that I have sold recently. The pics, on first examination, show a pretty nice early copper in a XF40 PCGS slab (a scratched slab though):






I asked an early copper expert on chances of removal of the obverse carbon spot in front of Liberty's face that was bugging me and the chance of getting it reslabbed afterward. Careful what you ask for because you may learn more than you expected! Here is what he said after reviewing the above pictures (shared with you in the spirit of education when buying early copper - tough to find early copper that doesn't have some flaws):

"From what I can see and guess regarding your large cent, there is risk in further work. This is merely my best guess from your pictures, and without seeing the piece "in the copper." It looks to me like the two spots at the upper right obverse, and maybe one at the bottom, already have had some work done, with a bit of a "pit" visible from the probably necessary "dig." I basically agree that the cancer should be removed to avoid future continuation of the damage....... Sometimes that does mean going into the surface, as did the corrosion previously."

"It looks like someone already did just that on your 1803 on those tougher and obvious spots. It also looks like there are different sorts of verdigris present, making different levels of outcome a big probability. To be sure, it looks like there is indeed removable black substance in the fillet, parts of the wreath, and elsewhere; however there is also cuprous oxide (that red look) at the bottom of the bust. That generally typifies an intrusive corrosion, and compromised metal, which frequently leads to less than satisfying results. The results of a cuprous oxide coin virtually never match those of any other type of corrosion. It is very tough to work......."

"So your problem is that, if the coin is cracked out, and whether or not any future work helps the thing, you may have a problem getting it graded again. ....... A removed spot is one criteria for a no-grade, and it looks like that has already happened here. Those other spots may very well be a similar situation. If it were raw I might have a shot at it, as I know I wouldn't hurt it, and I could easily stop before it started going downhill. However since it is already in a maxed-out grade PCGS holder, I will pass on this one."

So, with this knowledge confirming my suspicions, I sold the coin. Of course, I paid a relatively small price for the tuition (selling below my cost) so perhaps all is not lost in that I've gained knowledge I didn't have before.

Obviously, this is another good example of a common mistake - one should "buy the coin, not the slab". This is really good advice.

 

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Nice information. Another reason I shy away from early copper. Unless of course I get them free or real cheap. By free I mean in a yard sale box lot.
Example:
Pay ten bucks for a box of coins and pick out the good silver, the remaining large cents are to me free.
I have a 1837 Upper Canada copper. Man that thing is alive with green.
Cleaned it once and it grew back worse. Got it free though.

 

Nice post!!! Very well spoken and I will also take this knowledge with me! Thanks catbert!!!

 

It's hard to believe they only graded it an XF. Maybe the problems mentioned is what held it back.
Guy~

 

Nice coin.
IMO unless you are serious about putting together a topnotch set for the grade, keep it (Okay, too late now.)
And for me the die crack is additional appeal.

I've got a 1798 graded XF-45 that would have trouble matching the sharpness of yours.
Market grading?

 

PCGS is the only TPG that guarantees copper coins against copper spots. You could have sent it back to them for a spot review, and they would have bought the coin from you. I've done this before with good results.

 

Isn't this ONLY when the spot(s) develop after slabbing?
I don't think it was clear in the OP's post that this was the case.

 

Very interesting post. This is one of the reasons I'm so afraid of early copper. There are so many different types of problems they have, I can't imagine how hard it would be to find a problem free example. At first glance, it looks like a great coin, but it clearly has problems. Thanks for sharing.

 

unfortunately this is fairly stansard for old copper. the tolerance for work on these coins is much higher than for most other types and the vast majority have been curated. It is so common that even on this piece which isn't overly expensive (worth 800-1500 or so) that the op was consulting with one of the known curators on the feasability of a spot removal.

There are sharks in those waters, buy with great caution!!

 

Let's say I have a AG early copper. It's not pretty - probably the only kind I'll ever be able to afford.

Is there no way to get rid of the green? This assumes you could use almost any cleaning method since the coin is pretty much "bottom of the junk bin" already?

 

If it has the spots before it goes in the slab, they'll bodybag it.

 

The spots were there when I bought it. As for when it was slabbed, I don't know.

 

Well, if there are "pits" on the coin because someone had to "dig" out some of the spots...I'd say those spots were certainly there before the coin was slabbed. Now, some of the spots may have developed in the slab but with proof showing some of them did not I doubt PCGS would have done anything about it.

 

People are fairly partisan about TPG's and I will not go into what I think about TPG's other than to say that you indeed must buy the coin and not the slab. The coin has to please you, the grade of the coin that someone else assigned should not even factor in that decision.

 

RichieB - There are no pits on the coin......it was the very smooth planchet that first attracted me to the coin along with the hair detail and reverse die crack.

 

I was just referring to what the expert said about it. He mentioned a couple of the carbon spots appeared to already have work done on them resulting in a minor pit.

 

Great post. I initially really liked the copper cent until it was shown to have serious flaws. I still like it and would love to own it but the problems seem to put it on a downward spiral. It'll only continue to deteriorate and that's too bad.

This post, Catbert, taught me something about old coppers.

Bruce

 

Thanks Bruce. After understanding its flaws, I could not in good conscious sell it to anyone I know or to any Coin Talkers. The person I sold it to is a specialist, so he knows what he is getting. When I bought it in April, I paid $1200. After considering consignment or sale, I took his offer of $1000 realizing that it might be tough to sell in this market. I am okay with the hit. He told me that he will retail it for $1499 and it will sit until it sells. As for me, I wanted to quickly get rid of it after learning more about its problems.

Even though I thought I'd properly inspected this coin before buying (and yes, I knew about the carbon spot that became bothersome to me later), I did also gain some comfort from the PCGS slab since I am not an early cent collector. I was going the type collecting approach and felt this was a good example of a draped bust cent.

Again, it is very important not to gain much comfort by a top TPG. They are reliable regarding authenticity, but make no guarantees of a quality coin. The lesson truly is focus, focus, focus very carefully on the coin!

 

Update

Now has been reholdered and selling on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1803-S253-drape...3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:1|39:1|240:1318