8 reales Countermark 1804 Mexico city

Hey everyone. I recently bought this 1804 8 reales with a bunch of counter stamps for 35$. I was hoping some of you could shed some light on what the marks are and where they come from. Thanks in advance

 

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8 reales were used in the Orient quite extensively , they were the coin the Chinese trusted most . Your marks are chop marks , put there by a local merchant to let the people know it had the proper silver content .

 

Not countermarks, chop marks.

Very different things

 

I see. So they are from Asia? What part of Asia? Is it a specific company because I have seen a lot of similar markings on different coins. Does it increase/decrease value?

 

Usually chop marks are from Southern China , mostly from around Canton and Hong Kong . Chops usually decrease the value of a coin , but well struck well preserved coins with one or 2 chops will bring about the same as unchopped pieces . Some collectors prefer chopped pieces but I doubt very much a premium will be paid . Coins with multiple chops whrer they cover the whole coin definitely lose value .

 

Nice coin. One Of the United States exports to China during the early times of America was Spanish silver. I have a similar piece and dig the history! Think about it, your silver dollar likely sailed aboard a wooden ship with sails around one of the southern capes! Cool huh

 

I dig the history too. I guess south china is as specific as it gets about these chop marks. There are quite a few on this coin so perhaps it traveled more than I expect. Can't find any links on this type of coin so if anyone has more info please share. Thanks

 

South China is the only place I'm aware of that chop marked their coins . But each large merchant would mark each coin with his mark , there might of been ten large merchants in near towns or cities where your coin traveled and it would be marked in each area . There was plenty of fakes even back then . England even set up a mint in South China with the sole purpose to produce Spanish reales . Problem was though they staffed it with local Chinese who kept debasing the coins more and more till they were worthless . It's one of the reasons we made our Trade Dollar to compete in the Orient with Spanish and Mexican reales . A very good book about the Trade dollar and trade in China is the book "The United States Trade Dollar , Americas only Unwanted Coin " by John M. Willem . It's out of print but you can still find copies from Numismatic book dealers .

 

Here's a good link on chop marks .
http://www.1messydesk.com/chopmarks/chopmarks.html

 

Interesting article. But it doesn't tell specific details about the chop marks other than they are Chinese

 

What would you like to know about the chopmarks ?

 

Well I was curious if it was from a large trading company or if it was from small private merchants. And it would be nice to know if they are common or add value. But most of all I want to know who or what put them there. I understand it may be impossible to know. Hopefully I can find out with greater detail where the chop marks come from.

 

Local assayers in China.

 

If you send a chopmarked coin to NGC, it will come back graded but with a "details" annotation. Their position is that chopmarks constitute mechanical damage. So while there are aficionados of these, for the vast majority of collectors, it's unlikely to enhance the price they'd be willing to pay for one.

 

The host coin was most likely made in the US between 1850 and 1930. Vast majority of "Spanish" silver used in the Orient during that period shares a similar origin.

 

I'd never heard that scenario before. Do you have a source (book or website) for it that you could refer us to? Such massive counterfeiting of a foreign coinage has the potential of calling into question the authenticity of all Mexican 8 reales still around today, whether of the colonial pattern or later, chopmarked or not.

 

Are you saying that my awesome chop marked coin might not be real?

The horror!!!!!

 

Good reference right here on our own site. Say "thank you, Doug"

http://www.cointalk.com/threads/chop-marked-coins.16428/

 

Thank you, Doug.

Here's another source I had previously found to be a very useful reference on this topic: http://www.1messydesk.com/chopmarks/chopmarks.html

In that article, the counterfeiting of Spanish coinage by the British in the 18th century is addressed. But I've still not come across any material documenting the same nefarious activity in this country during a later period. If it was widespread, I'd expect to see something somewhere.

 

I've done a lot of research on Trade with China , and I never heard of the US making 8 reales . As matter of fact because the 8 reale was the preferred coin in China we were buying as many as we could because our dollars were discounted to the point it raised the cost of doing business , that's why the Trade dollar was made . I have read of the English establishing a mint in China to make full weight 8 reales but the staffed the mint with Chinese workers who quickly debased the coin till it was worthless . Do you have a link on this as I'd love to read it . Thanks .