Sorry Bill, what is plate shift doubling? Also I'm not sure what I'm looking at, looks like the D is doubled but I can't see much else.
"Plate shift doubling" pertains to the rippling effect that causes a "shadow" so to speak of doubling around the letters, numerals or other details on a coin. "Plate split doubling" is the effect that we see on a coin when the sharp edges of a die actually break through the copper plating. Occasionally the zinc is exposed along the edge of the numerals or lettering or design details creating the appearance of doubling. Two different things. I'll try to work on some pictures of the two although we have probably all seen both of these things at some point in time. Thanks, Bill
This coin shows plate shift doubling on the date as well as plate split doubling on the mint mark. Keep in mind that both are clunkers
Thx I think I am almost understanding. So the shift doubling is actually not a double hit but the metal around the hit shifting causing the shadow?
I could have chosen a different dateand mint mark combination. 1994 D had nothing particular to do with it. The coin you posted is that one with the rot under the plating. Thanks, Bill
1994 d Bill, I realize that it was coincidence that you chose the date combination... I know how you feel about what you think is a rotten penny. You really don't see a 4? You are soooo sure..and you might be right, but the thought that you might not be right just doesn't sit well with you does it? I sent it in for evaluation and waiting to hear back. I hope that this is something that no one can explain, and blows your whole theory :whistle:that it would be impossible for that kind of error to happen,..Who knows??? Have a great day!!!
It won't blow my theory as to the fact that it is damage of some sort and most likely rot under the plating. As for not being right, not sitting well with me....That's unfair as you don't really know me. Those that do know me can tell you that I've been a collector, numismatist and numismatic writer for a long time. They will also tell you that I am probably 98% to 99% accurate with my assessments of coins, especially of errors and die varieties, even using some of the horrible pictures seen in photos on forums. AND...When I am wrong, I am the first to admit it. (It doesn't happen often) It is also safe to say that there are a few people on some of the forums that like to pick away at my posts as well as other well known numismatists that post on the various forums. I am not saying that you are one of those people but others here know who they are That is also not a matter of being paranoid, it is a mere matter of fact. The reason why I push an answer and seem to "have to get the last word" is because these forums are supposed to be a place for fun but equally as importantly a place for education to take place. Here's why...Whether some want to admit it or not.....Some people come here for free expert advice so that they can list coins on eBay or sell them outright. That places me in an unusual situation. I can't stand garbage being placed on Ebay and seeing it sold to newer collectors who don't know what they are getting is deplorable. Perhaps half of the error and die varieties placed on eBay are junk coins being listed by people who don't know what they are looking at. The biggest rip-offs come from counterfeit coins being sold on eBay. The second biggest rip-offs are coins being sold that are worthless. Coins that are machine doubled are worthless yet they are being sold as valuable doubled dies every day. Collectors are getting burnt. That's what fries me. That's my motivation. So, what do I do....If I didn't respond on these forums and if other experts didn't respond on these forums, the problem would multiply. If people aren't informed by others who know what they are really looking at, more junk would be sold on auction forums or outright. When someone posts a coin that has no chance of being what they think it is, it is my self imposed responsibility to be accurate and honest in an assessment of a coin so that the person who has the coin knows what he or she is looking at. It is my responsibility as a numismatist and even as an ANA (American Numismatic Association) member to educate others so that they can make informed choices. So when I respond on a forum, it hopefully is an educational tool for the many others to use in order to learn more about coins. There are folks here on this forum that know that when they identify a coin correctly or make a new discovery, that I applaud that and back up there identification. I have the experience to do so and I will place my experience and knowledge in my areas of expertise up there with the others. What you may not realize is that like, Mike Diamond, Chuck Daughtery, James Wiles and others, people send me coins to look at for opinions as to their authenticity as errors or die varieties. While I am not using my skills in that area to make money as others are (and there is nothing wrong in that) I try to provide the education for free. Do a search for Found In Rolls or Ask About Coins and spend some time there. Read my columns in CoinWorld. You might get an idea that I know what I'm looking at with respect to coins. Please understand that I am not trying to sound like a pompous putz but since you apparently don't know me that well, I am trying to give you an idea as to why I do, what I do. It's not about me....or being right or wrong....It's about education and helping a few people learn something about the minting process. Maybe that knowledge will help them save or make a few bucks, somewhere down the line. I have literally looked at millions of coins. I examine coins on a daily basis, in huge numbers. There is almost nothing error or die variety related that I have not seen or written about. Looking at a coin like your 1994 D and telling what it is, or isn't is a walk in the park. Anyway...Thanks for your time. Bill
I appreciate you taking the time to tell me more about yourself,..and your background. I do respect the education you have and knowledge. I also enjoyed reading what you wrote earlier on single squeeze hubbing process. I collect because I like it. I have not sold one coin from my own collection. I have many others...that were given to me by my father that I have not shown here, as I am more interested right now in the newer coins. I will probably sell some of my coins one day, but only to buy something else in the coin world. I will research more on found in rolls...and read some more of your articles...I really want to know more about the process and how it works. Thank you for taking the time to write me...not many would have done that...and the education you try to teach will help a lot of people..and i can see why it would bother you to know that innocent people are being taken by others. So, I applaud you and your efforts..but I still say you're wrong....lol my new friend....
And as I stated in that post, if I am wrong, I'll be the second one to say so I'm sure you would want to be the first Going a little further. This has happened several times in my past but more recently, last summer. An older gentleman from a church that I sing at when I am not directing my choir at my own church, wanted to show me his lifetimes collection of errors and doubled dies. We are talking albums full of coins, nicely put in 2X2s and placed in those plastic pages with the sleeves for the 2X2s. Page after Page in three ring binders. It was a well organized collection. Remember, he collected errors and die varieties. 50 years worth. Some dealer, fifty years ago looked at a coin for him and pronounced it a doubled die. The coin was machine doubled but it was now a basis for lifetimes collection of worthless coinage. Now , if he was intentionally collecting machine doubled coins, I would say OK, since he knew what he had. Here's a guy who was squirreling these coins away for fifty years, figuring that at least he could sell them and pay for a nice vacation some day. There was not a single doubled die in the more than a thousand coins and I blame that one dealer for passing incredibly poor information to John. This guy spent more money on the albums, the plastic pages and the 2X2s than the coins were worth. Imagine how he felt and imagine how I felt after informing him of this fact. He bought badly labeled coins from uninformed coin dealers. He bought them from eBay. He spent thousands on numismatic trash. He was shattered and when I got back into my car, I cried. Literally. I came home and told Lily, (my Lady about it and cried again. I don't want this scenario to happen to anyone else if I can help them to avoid it. My motivation is pure. I can't stand people getting ripped-off whether is by scam, or by bad information given to them at some point in their collecting lives. It's simple. Maybe I'm too idealistic but if I've saved one person from getting ripped, I did OK. More than that and my life actually has a purpose with respect to the "coin" portion of my life. I'll look forward to hearing what your coin is when you get it back. Thanks, Bill PS: friends can indeed agree to disagree so I thank you for adding that note of friendship at the end of your previous comment. PPS: The articles are more on Ask About Coins, also look in the archives on the site. PPPS: John and I are still friends!
1992 Whew, I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to tell that man about his collection, and yes, that must have hurt. I see your motivation and respect it. I am sorry if I offended you,..especially over a penny...forgive thou if thee will. I enjoy learning, but I might have been a little closed minded when I saw that 4 under the mintmark. It might be rot, I really don't know. It is ironic though. I am going to keep it though, no matter what, as my little reminder to keep an open mind about learning. I haven't heard back from Mr. Potter yet, and I am not sure how long it takes. :high5:
Your coin will come back exactly as Bill says I see Your coin will come back exactly as Bill says I see hundreds of these each week - you can't sling a cat around circ. cents and not find coin such as yours all day long - you know sometimes you gotta to trust folks who know what they are saying. By the amount of shear effort Bill has invested in this thread it would be fairly obvious that he is correct and knows what he is talking about. I have seen coins like yours 10's of thousands, 100's of thousands of times - they are exactly what he said - the plating is so thin and the actual striking of the coin in this composition contributes to it's ruin. When the plating is broken next to devises and moisture gets to the zinc core your coin is born, simple as that.
Let me also say that I don't take offense unless someone calls me a really nasty name As far as the learning curve, I was in the same boat a long time ago when I thought that everything I saw was an error or a die variety As you dig more deeply into the minting process, you learn what can be ruled out. The more you goof up, as I used to 35 years ago, the more you have the opportunity to learn over time. We all start from knowing "el zippo" and we work our way into knowledge from there. By the way, I'll see if I can nudge Ken along on the 1994 D cent. Have Fun, Bill
