1922 weak d? Die 3?

Just trying to identify this cent. What would you guys grade?

 

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I hope you don't mind if I piggy-back on your thread but I also have a 1922 weak D that I've wondered about. So maybe we can kill two Lincoln's with one thread?

Ribbit

 

First a question. Are the back and front rotated slightly and what direction is the back rotated relative to the front?

 

Same questions toad.

 

When flipped, the reverse is slightly rotated counter-clockwise, maybe 5 degrees.

Ribbit

 

I can't tell for sure if yours is a weak "D" or a no "D". The definition I have heard is no "D" detected up to 10X loop. Yours is die #3 and I would say VF30+ maybe even XF40 - NOT counting the dings. I will let you figure what the net grade is.

 

I just tried all kinds of angles to get the D to show and I managed to get it finally. I can see it with a magnifying glass but it is very weak.

Ribbit

Ps: Because I can barely make out any of the wheat lines, I'd say it's VG to F at best and the 2 BB hits bring it down to possibly a G but for 4 bucks, I fiigured I wouldn't get hurt.

 

I bow out of this one and concede all 1922 No-D opinions to Rlm, the resident expert on the date.

I like mine with big sharp D's and red with luster

 

They both appear to be "weak d", rlm's grade on Toad's appears correct, although die 3 was usually so weakly struck, wear might be as little as as 45.

here is a good article on the 22

http://www.lincolncentresource.com/1922Ddievarieties.html

Jim

 

Awesome article Jim! :thumb:

Most of what is said about Die 3 is true with my penny, 2nd 2 in date weaker than 1st, L in LIBERTY butting against the rim, reverse slightly rotated counterclockwise, and the reverse is weak and very wavy.

I'm not a collector of Lincolns but I have a few and I saw this in the "trash bin" at the local coin shop and couldn't resist getting it for 4 bucks. I figured I'd sell it someday and I will, if I ever get around to selling my loose stuff.

Ribbit

 

you need a magnifine glass to see toad is getting old

 

The old eyes ain't what they used to be. :kewl:

Ribbit

 

Thanks Jim for that article :thumb:

 

Johnny, the more I consider your coin, the more I think I need to modify my first answer to the extent that the mintmark is visible but weak, but it doesn't seem to fit any of the recognized varieties. Without actually having it actually in hand, I now lean towards a regular 1922-D die that was somewhat filled during the use process, or a coin that was tooled down to imitate a 22 Plain. Do you see anything of interest on the fields near the mm? Many of the 22s were worked as the price difference was so great.

Rlm has handled more of these than I have and I will yield to his input. It is very interesting to have 22s on your watch program to read the ebay descriptions as they pop up.

The coppercoins site says of the 22 plain "[SIZE=-1]In truth, all of them are typical and rather common errors, and none of them should logically command any premium value...but since they do, we deal with reality.[/SIZE]"


Jim

 

Johnny,

Since you apparently are not going to answer about the rotation, I will give you my best guesses and you can compare your coin to my certified VF30 die #3. ANACS called it a weak "D" and I suspect that they are right in this case even though they call all weak reverses "weak "D"'s" regardless of whether the D"D is just barely visible or absolutely not there.

First, I am positive yours is not die #1, #2, or #4. So it is either #3, an unrecognized variety, or home made. The markers just do not look right for #3. The 22 and the "trust" just do not quite look right nor the strike on the obverse. The reason I asked about the rotation is that somewhere between a lot and all of the die #3 coins are rotated ~15 degrees counter clockwise. (I am leaning toward the all, but have seen "some", "most", and "all" in writing.) I am uncertain enough to say that if it is rotated correctly, it is probably real.

 

Here is a 1922-D of mine


Sorry I didn't think to align them vertical

Rev.



There is rotation.

This is at 10X



The marks around the "D" disturb me, but they don't seem to be tooling on the "D", uncertain.

Here is 30 X



Here is the crack line from the L to the O of what I believe is a type 1. I haven't seen any mention is articles about pitted or rusted reverse dies, but this one does seem to have it.



The motto. Can't tell about the T-U-T being stronger than the R-S



and the wheat on back, very mushy, even though it is a fairly high grade coin for its strike.



Interested in comments.

Thanks

Jim

 

Nice coin, Awesome photos, especially the close ups. Based on the overall wear of the coin, it has to be a weak D. Thanks for sharing. Nice toning also.

 

I do not think yours falls into a weak"D". There is too much "D" present. It is possible your may be die pair #1 , but before the "D" went away. There appears to me to be just too much detail still present on both the obverse and reverse when I compare it to Lincoln cent resources.

For comparison, here is my date blown up. I do not have the microscope you have for those great pics. I think you can make out where the "D" is, but just.

PS. - Sorry about the dust on the pic.

 

Yes, the apparently strong last "2" does confuse me. the obverse is more 22-D, but the rev die sure follows for the rev of the die #1. So maybe that die was used with a different "non weak" 22-D obv to give the combination of this coin. That could also explain the pitting and rusting that occurred on the reverse if it was a Late stage.
I think the D is weak enough for "market" grading, but it is the last "2" that makes it a 1922D cent. I might send it into a TPG just for the interest

Thanks Rlm's for the comment. Your photos are plain whistle: pun) enough for the details :thumb:

Jim

 

thanks for the great info guys!! I wasn't expecting nearly that much depth, but this is such a great place to learn. Im sorry it took so long to respond. The coin in question was not actually my coin. I'm just trying to sharpen my skills in analyzing this coin type, so when I decide to buy, I can make an educated decision. So I honestly dont know about the rotation. Anyways, it seems that for potential die 3's, its best to have the coin in hand to see the rotation.