1913 Buffalo Nickel Type 1 - Is this a Proof strike?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by iPen, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    This example appears to have some very sharp details, more so than many of the high grade examples. The edges certainly look sharp and squared. The details seem to go deeper, and with more details showing. And, many of the features do seem to match up with graded proof examples.

    However, there's an interesting amount of wear on some of the devices (e.g. 1913 and FIVE CENTS), and the a noticeable horizontal scratch or mark of some kind on the obverse. But, maybe that's just PMD.

    Anyway, the auction ended and I didn't win, but I am still curious... is this is a proof strike?

    Thanks in advance!

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  3. Hommer

    Hommer Curator of Semi Precious Coinage

    I'm not so sure that is a scratch on the obverse. It appears to be a die crack because it is clearly raised in between the feathers and onto the cheek. Beautiful coin no doubt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  4. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    That is an amazing Buffalo, to bad you didn't win. The scratch you refer to looks like a die crack.
     
  5. jtlee321

    jtlee321 Well-Known Member

    I was watching that thing for quite a while. I thought it might be a proof at first, but I am pretty sure a proof does not have a die crack across the obverse. I'm curious as to who won it. It is hammered and mark free. I just wonder how the luster is on it.
     
  6. ddddd

    ddddd Member

  7. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    I wondered the same thing.

    I could see that in the beginning of production, and a new design, there could have been some dies that almost shattered on impact. Adjusting strike pressure and depth, of strike.
    JMO
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  8. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    1) yes, die crack
    2) amazing strike
    3) proof? not likely, but ...?
     
  9. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    How about a recycled proof die that eventually cracked?
     
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Even if it was that would not account for the quality of strike. Proofs were struck with more pressure and struck at least twice. For the most part, THAT's what accounts for the quality of strike on Proofs.

    The quality of the detail on Proof dies is basically the same as on business strikes. In other words, if struck with equal pressure, and only once, used Proof dies will produce coins with quality of strike equal to that of coins struck with business strike dies.

    All of that said, there should be die diagnostics that would allow one to determine if that coin is indeed a Proof - or not. As to what they are, that I do not know. But the information should be out there.

    As for the raise line in the hair being discussed, I agree it's likely a die crack. But there is a small scratch in the hair just above the hair tie.

    Lastly, that coin has as good as quality of strike as I have ever seen on Buff.
     
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  11. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Not at that time. According to Roger Burdette the double striking of proofs didn't start until the 1950's. Those early proofs were struck once at much higher pressures in the medal press.
     
    Michael K likes this.
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I stand corrected.
     
  13. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    WOAH, if that's true, then that proves that the 1893 Columbian halves and Isabella quarters were all technically proof strikes!! I showed documentation some time ago in some other threads, that the 1893 Columbian halves were struck by hand-operated machinery to produce "medallic quality" strikes, and classified at the scene of the Columbian's strike by eye-witnessing numismatists as distinctly medallions rather than circulation strike coins. Even the Mint Director's report states that they're struck as medallion quality!

    So, wouldn't that prove once and for all that proofs do exist for the 1893 Columbian halves and Isabella quarters? In fact, all of them were struck with medallic quality! A bit off topic, but this should definitively change PCGS's position on the matter.
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    But it takes more than that to define a Proof.
     
  15. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    Yes, that's right, though I do believe that the dies were polished, too, at least once at the beginning to specially prepare the die. We see deep mirror finishing on some examples and I asked PCGS to also take into consideration the self-evident nature of the Columbian and Isabella's strikes (i.e. the squared edges, mirroring on some of examples, crisp details).
     
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    But all dies are polished before use - every single one. It is the degree to which the polishing is done that partially distinguishes a Proof from a business strike.

    And that's the bottom line, there are several things that distinguish them from each other.
     
  17. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    I mean to say polished to DMPL / proof levels, if that suffices with respect to the degree of die polishing. There are a number of examples that can be given DMPL designation if the proof designations were stripped.
     
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    To my way of thinking it doesn't. There are many DMPL coins that are no where near the equal of Proofs. But even if they were polished to that extent, that would still not make them Proofs.
     
  19. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    If you study the die crack and follow it you'll notice it travels from the left rim @ just a little passed 9K. Travels though both feathers into the head or hair,which ever you prefer.
    It then travels over where you expect his ear to be onto the cheek. There is where it turns South connecting to a secondary crack. That begins at the top of of the brade. Then heads East across his upper lip to the rims edge. So this is a bisected die crack coin.
    And a beautiful one at that .....any one know what it hammered at?
     
  20. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    $447.88 (!)
     
  21. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    Thanks and wow!
     
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