1880 Alfonso XII 4 Peso

I would appriciate an appraisal for this gold coin-1880 Alfonso XII 4 Peso and if possible some background or history. The coin is 21 mm in diameter and 2.4 mm thick. Enclosed are pictures of the front and back.
Thank You,
Mike Reidenbach

 

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Dear Mike,
I don't actually see any pictures attached but I guess you mean the Philippine coins of Alfonso XII.
If you speak Spanish here is a link to follow:
http://www.geocities.com/aberraman/alfon/ALFXII.htm

 

Dear Lev,
Thanks for the site refferal and yes the coin is from the Philippines.
Sorry about the pics. Had to reduce file size. Just learned how to. I'm not very good with the computer. I think the picture is attached now.
Hope you can help me with appraisal.

 

Dear Mike,
As far as I know, Alfonso XII's Philippine 4 pesos (1880-1885) cost a good deal of money.
Only the 1882 ones are a bit more "cheap", i.e. $1500-$2200.
The 1880 coins range between $5000-$14000, the exact price depending on the coin's grade.
So, you have a nice little treasure in your hand if you ask me

 

Dear Lev,
Could you tell me were you got the $4000-$15,000 appraisal. I could use some leads in getting an authoritative valuation. I am very confused since I heard that the Coin Museum of the Central Bank of the Philippines bought an 1880 from Mexico about 20 years ago for $40,000. I will be visiting them next week to verify this and to have my coin authenticated. Also in the mid 90's, the former owner was approached by a supposed representative of Aldo P. Basso (author of Coins, Medals and Tokens of the Philippines) with a $70,000 offer. I was told that Basso had passed away so that was a dead end for getting an appraisal. The coin was recently given to me and I am very currious about it's current market value and who would pay top Dollar for it.

 

Dear Mike,
Philippine coins are not my element, so it is not impossible that your figures are more precise. I am sharing just my info, not a professional appraisal. Otherwise, I would have charged you a fee . Looking for a price I usually stick to the lowest levels I've seen and not to auction lots which have made headlines.
To be honest, it took me some time to retrace the source of the Alfonso XII's coins' prices. Since for me it was a matter of general and not primal ineterest, I didn't take the trouble to remember it. Anyhow, here it is (it is in Spanish):
http://www.fuenterrebollo.com/faqs-numismatica/menu2.html
If you scroll down you will find a list of Spanish rulers with coin denominations.
Under Alfonso XII you will find the 4 pesos:
http://www.fuenterrebollo.com/faqs-numismatica/1882-4pesos.html
The prices are in Spanish pesetas which are now already obsolete in favour of the Euro (1 EUR = 166.386 ESP)
I think the appraisal of the most rare coins on the site is given by the Cayón Herrero brothers (Adolfo, Clemente and Juan). You can contact them at cayon@cayon.com
Good luck and send me a postcard from the Philippines .

 

Dear Lev,
Thank you very much for your assisstance. The sites you sent me were very helpful (I have to have them translated since I don't speak Spanish). The Spanish sites are probably the most authoritative since the coin was minted in Spain. I hope I can reciprocate kindness in the future. I will keep you posted of any further developments with regards to my research.

 

The bank that got the coin for $40,000 might have gotten another date...if so...yours might be worth more or less...if yours in the same date and is in the same grade then you might have something--if you want to get it authenticated you might want to send it to a Grading Co. or take it to a coin dealer...I don't think a bank would be the best place to ask if its real or not...

Make sure you hold the coin by the edge (rim) or you might start seeing fingerprints after a while pop up on the coin.

Speedy

 

Dear Speedy,
Thanks for your input. I called the Money Museum of the Central Bank of the Philippines and they refered me to the consultant who set up their Money Museum, Conrad Ciriaco. He was in our neighborhood visiting his daughter and was very eager to see the coin because he knows of only one other specimen here in the Philippines. He looked at the coin and classified it AU (almost uncirculated) and authentic. I keep in one of those clear plastic coin containers which he said would give the coin sufficient protecton. He says the coin that the Central Bank bought for $40,000 in Mexico was not the 1880 Alfonso XII but a different gold coin with a counter stamp, I forgot the name. He also said that the Alfonso XII were minted in the Philippines and not in Spain as I assumed. The mint along with it's records were destroyed in World War II so they can't find out how many of the 1880's were made. Most gold coins in the Philippines were routinely melted down and used for jewerly before collectors showed interest. This is why there are so few specimens. He was very apprehensive that I would sell the coin in the US or Europe. He felt strongly that the coin should remain the the Philippines so I told him that I had not made up my mind.

 

good luck with your decision. perhaps Mr. Ciriaco is interested in your coin?

 

Dear Mike,
I was just about to say that your coin was minted in Manila and not in Spain but I saw you were told so by Mr Ciriaco. I will appreciate if you post me the further developments of your research. Good luck!

 

Dear Cait,
Mr. Ciriaco told me that he knows of 4 collectors who would be very interested in aquiring the Alfonso XII. I will be talking to other numismatics to get a clearer picture with regards to its value and the prospects of further appriciation in the future. I think I should listen to the opinions of other experts although it can get confusing if they start giving opposing opinions.

 

Dear Lev,
The Spanish web site you gave me had the 1880 coin listed at 1.9 million Pesetas or about $13,600. This was pretty colse to the $15,000 estimate of Mr. Ciriaco.
He called yesterday and had a firm offer of $15,000 from a local collector. Another broker called today and said he was trying to negotiate for $20,000 from a Japanese buyer. I told them I to put things on hold because I wanted to talk first to the board members of the Philippine Numismatic Association. They will be meeting next week and I would like to listen to what they have to say.
I went to the Central Bank Museum on Monday and the museum director told me that they did not have an 1880 but had 2 pcs. of the 1882 which were on display. It seemed that the information from Mr. Ciriaco was correct and that the rumor that they aquired an 1880 for $40,000 was false. I got a call however from the museum director this morning and she said she found another inventory list that indicated that they had aquired an 1880 Alfonso XII in 1979 during her predecessor term. She thinks it could be in their vault and she will try and verify this. She said that they are still in the process of computerizing their inventory which has about 25,000 items, this is why she was unaware of it's existence. I requested that she try and find out if the coin is still in their possessoin, where it was acquired from and for how much. She said she would try but could not promise me the answers. Anyway I think I will go visit them in a couple of weeks and see if she got any results. This is getting to be a lot harder than I thought.
I was just wondering, if they have a specimen, that means there are 3 verified 1880's known to exist. Would it reduce the value of my coin? Most of the local collectors were under the impression that there were only 2 specimens that existed, mine and another owned by a lady dentist.

 

i have no idea, but i'm excited about all this!! it probably wont go down, if they found 3,000 others then maybe it would. i cant see how one more coin would drastically reduce the sale price.

 

It seems that my opinion on the coin's price, given the fact that yours appeared to be Unc., was pretty much correct.
I agree with Cait that two or three pieces don't make a big difference. Unless they discover a hoard of 1880 Alfonso XII's 4 pesos.

 

Dear Lev,
Got this email from Heritage Galleries & Auctioneers. Would you know if they are a reputable firm? I would appriciate your input on this since I am unfamiliar with the large coin dealers in the USA. If you know of any other large reputable firms please let me know. I think it would be a good idea to see what they have to say. It seems that cross checking different sources may get a more current valuation on the coin. Thanks

Dear Michael,
This is a super coin. I would love to have this coin in the September Long Beach sale. Philippines is red-hot and a coin like this should bring a huge price. I haven't seen an 1880 4 Pesos sold in many years. It should be a mid-5 figure coin ($40,000 to $60,000), a full page coin in the catalog and a catalog cover coin.
I would love to talk to you about this coin and getting it here to Texas for auction.
Best wishes,
David M. Lewis
Professional Numismatist/Wholesale Department
Heritage Galleries & Auctioneers
World's Largest Collectibles Auctioneer
3500 Maple Avenue, 17th Floor
Dallas, Texas 75219-3941

 

Yes I would say they are reputable...every firm has some black marks but this one seems to be A OK...I have gotten coins from them and they seem to get great prices...

If you are thinking of selling I would suggest thinking about this offer for a good while...they do get a nice cut from the selling price but you would still get a good $$$

Speedy

 

I would completely trust Heritage, they are VERY reputable. I would also contact Bowers and Merena. B&M is another big auction house that regularly auctions some of the greatest rarities in numismatics.

 

Dear Cave Troll
Thanks for the tip. I will check them out.