1878 CC GSA Morgan Uncirculated Details Cleaned

Well, I thought it couldn't happen, but it did. I just saw my updated status and my 1878 got a details grade in the GSA holder. My question is, what's it worth now? Is it worth it to ask for a regrade?

 

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Maybe the pics aren't showing what ngc saw because at worst I see a slightly circulated before going back to the bank morgan from the nature of the marks showing. How does it look under 10x scrutiny? How do the surfaces look overall in hand?

 

Man, that's unfortunate. You'd think that if it was cleaned that they'd be nice and still give it a numerical grade (even though they really shouldn't) on account of it being in the GSA holder.

I guess if all else fails you could market it as the only GSA Morgan with a details grade.

 

I really don't know, I am still waiting for it to come back. It looked dull, but not cleaned. I'm wondering if the lack of contrast on the bag marks on the cheek caused them to be suspicious. To me it looks like a rough '78 that's been tossed around.

 

I really didn't think this would grade well, just wasn't expecting details. Maybe it's the difference between the obverse and reverse that caught their attention.

 

This isn't the first time a that a seemingly decent GSA Morgan has been deemed improperly cleaned. The problem is that the case can be easily opened and the coins switched long before you ever got it.

Chris

 

That is clearly a cleaned coin--I believe I said it before. The pitfalls of buying uncertified Morgans, and not being able to recognize a good cleaning when one sees it. There are some obvious signs of it being a damaged coin. What is it worth? A fraction of what an uncleaned 1878cc would be worth. BY the way, both the obverse and reverse show a cleaning--abrasive marks abound.

 

I posted the same pictures to you before and you said it was an MS62-63. It's easy to be a Monday morning QB. I had my doubts about it, but lesson learned. I'll share some other grades later, I was pleasantly surprised on a couple.

 

Wow, from the photo's I just don't see it. I see what I would have thought was an MS-64 coin.

 

It's unfortunate, but we have to consider this as a possibility. You definitely wouldn't expect a cleaned coin in a GSA slab, any questions about the quality of their evaluation at the time of sale notwithstanding. The overwhelming majority of GSA Morgans simply never left government possession to be cleaned. And we all know the more likely mistake with GSA coins is to find a nice Mint State in a cello holder, rather than a dog in black plastic.

With all of that said, I ain't seeing what they are about the cleaning. I did a ton of looking at this coin in the process of attribution (noted below), and from this one set of images I cannot see any evidence of cleaning.

It appears to be VAM-19.2, the later die pairing with the reverse. I believe I can see the polishing lines at the stalk/leaf and stem on the obverse, and the lack of hub defect detail around the E in ONE tends to indicate it should be the second die pair anyway.

http://www.vamworld.com/1878-CC+VAM-19

 

I remember saying it was a pretty beat up coin at least. I did say around a 62, but I am not being a " Monday Morning quarterback." You are buying coins on price, rather than pure eye appeal. I'd never buy relatively expensive coins from dubious sources. You can get lucky, but you can easily get burned-- and you did.

 

I'm not quite sold on it either, but I do see some indications of an improper rinse on the obverse.

Chris

 

Let's be objective--if it were not in a GSA holder, we would all have said "Unc Details--cleaned" from the get-go. I think that many of us (myself included, when I called it a "rough looking MS 62") assumed that it was uncleaned and undamaged, because it was in a GSA slab. Had it not been, and was it a raw coin, I guarantee that based on the obverse, with the obvious cleaning marks and dulled luster, and the reverse, with the excessive number of deep nicks and hairlines in a buff pattern would have screamed "details" coin. We all know that some damaged coins snuck into the GSA horde, as did some circulated ones. So, it is obvious and logical that a small percentage of them were cleaned. Nobody was touting that coin as "high end" uncirculated--face it, it looked pretty beat up for a GSA. Low MS grade, maxing out at 63, according to most people. SO, what is the surprise in it being cleaned? The holder. We all know that it is and was possible for cleaned, circulated, and damaged detail coins to make it into any holder--so that is clearly what happened here.

 

Sorry to hear about your grade. I don't remember (and am too lazy to go back and look at the other thread), but is this in a GSA labeled "uncirculated"?

Please post your other coin results with pics when you get them returned!

 

How do you know what I am buying coins based on? The fact is those exact pictures when showed to you raised no flags concerning cleaning or damage. I knew I had a dog when I received it. I fully admit I struck out. I'm not going to speculate if the coin was cleaned or not, but I can say I have become obsessed with Carson City Morgans, and I have never seen one in a GSA holder for sale with a details grade. I know you will say that's because dealers know better and so on but the fact is this coin is an anomaly because with the amount of them out there you would see some.

So either it was cleaned, NGC got it wrong, or chicanery was involved. But when you say things like "that is clearly a cleaned coin - I believe I said it before", the only result is one that is self aggrandizing. But you saw the coin before and said no such things. So what is driving you to say it now is not from a genuine place.

I try to buy coins based on eye appeal AND price. Sometimes photos are misleading. And this coin wasn't cheap. None of the 78s in a GSA are cheap. I should have returned it, but I didn't. People are commanding silly premiums for the NGC ribbon but at some point that coin was raw and it got graded. I have lucked out before and I have struck out before, son la cosa de la vida.

 

Thanks for the info Dave. I will have to take more pics, but I'm wondering if this can even be disputed with NGC.

Edit: How easy is it to take a Morgan out of a slab? I always thought the slab would be damaged if you tried to open it and seal it back up.

 

You don't want advice, fine. You are buying coins blind, and when criticized, you throw a hissy fit. This is fairly typical for newbies on this site. Whatever your motivation for buying ( and frankly, it doesn't concern me), you're pretty indiscriminate. You have quite a few more misses than hits, and complain, when you are taken to task that you need to learn to grade Morgans more accurately. It isn't ego saying this-- it is experience. Don't like what I have to say-- that is fine. I said the coin was kind of doggy from the beginning-- would not have guessed " cleaned" in a GSA holder, but it happens. Why not concentrate on really learning the series even better? Study the 13 coins, and know them well. Buy a few affordable GSA coins with NGC ribbons, so you are pretty safe. However, if you post pictures, expect them to be criticized. If you get a dog coin-- expect all sorts of theories as to how the coin is, or became imperfect. The bottom line is that collecting is an unscientific process-- it is highly subjective.

 

Edited: Thanks for the advice, I'll try better next time.

 

It's conceivable that the apparent residue visible at bottom right on both faces could be the evidence of cleaning. It's conceivable that it is evidence of cleaning. One set of images is prejudicial by nature. There is no "dispute" with NGC, really; you paid for a subjective opinion and they've cost you no value.

I don't have any experience playing with GSA slabs. Unless they were physically sealed via ultrasonic welding or heat, if they could be closed they could be opened.

 

Give a prison inmate a box of gsa morgans then come back in a month and I bet he will show you how to perfectly open and reseal the slabs with little more than dental floss and toothpaste.