1877 and 1909-S Indian Cent...pondering why

Why is it I think just about all graded 1877 and 1909-S IHC seem to be over graded - I am talking all three of the top tier NGC, PCGS, ANACs. I plan on getting these two coins over the next few months, but all of the ones I have seen - examples can be seen at Harlan Berk and JJ Teaparty. When I look at my ANA Grading book and what Rick Snow says in his books all of these would be at least 1 grade less. Is this because of them being key dates? I never really looked this hard in the past at these key dates, but I am in the market and none of these seem to fit the bill(I refuse to pay VF money for a coin I think is F). Heck - if I am going to buy a graded coin I want it to match the grade on the slab. Grrrrrr - guess I will have to wait some more. Okay - my frustration post for the day, time to take a break from searching and the web.

 

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It always seems that when the big guys submit coins they get better grades.
Example: 1896 S Barber Quarters. I have one where there is a 'slight' wear into the reverse letters. (And it is very slight) according to all grading books that makes it a good. However, NGC gave me an AG-3.
At the same time Ebay has had one that is half worn into the reverse lettering and is G-4.
Obviously sent in by one of the 'big guys'. Same with PCGS, lately with their grading, full rims both sides = G-6, but not for me.
So, to answer you, yes different grading, if you know the owner (I guess).

 

Treashunt,
How are three seperate graders to know who submitted what coins? Especially a coin where 188,039 were originally minted and quite a few survive today.

 

09S-VDB:
I don't believe that Bowers & Marena and the other big guys are unknown to the graders.
I only know what I have seen. Right now on Ebay there is a SEGS that is a good obverse and an AG reverse that is slabbed G-4. SEGS has never done that for me.
There have been PCGS and NGC coins that are the same. Otherwise, why would 3 graders call a commercial good a G-4?
Every coin that I have submitted, to any service, has required a full rim for a G-4, yet, there are plenty of full rim 1896 S's out there that are now being called G-6, with no detail in the bust, nor any letters of Liberty. (NGC & PCGS included).

There has to be a 'old boy' system at work.

 

Treashunt, I can guarantee you that at pcgs, no consideration is given to the submitter, as that information is ALWAYS confidential and unknown to every person in the grading room.

The only time when it is not unknown, would be when a well known coin such as a 1913 liberty nickel comes in, where the owner is well known as well.

So there is definitely no old boy system at work. I suspect NGC is exactly the same way as well.

 

Zane - Good try, but you'll never convince conspiracy theorists that there is no conspiracy.

 

Are you trying to say there's NOT a conspiracy?

 

Since you mentioned JJ Teaparty, I'd like to add my two cents and argue that they tend to overprice their lower-graded coins. I saw a '24 S Buffalo in the same condition (worse, I might say) as the one I have, and it was about 3 times the price compared to what I paid for mine at a much smaller coin store just outside Boston. They probably have to overprice, considering where they're located (right in downtown Boston), but still...a little lame.

 

Both dealers I mentioned do have what I consider some over priced coins. Berk has a shield nickel that I believe is overpriced . I usually check auctions and do comparison shopping before buying. Some times it amazes me what they ask. I think on the slabbed coins they usually just slap a price on them and they much better with their raw coins - my opinion only.

I like the simple answer "yes" to my question the best.

 

True, but it may be well known in the room that auction house X is going to be selling (or a big name dealer has recently acquired) say a major collection of large cents in three or four months, oh and look what has shown up in the valut. A whole bunch of boxes grouped as one submission that includes 700 large cents grouped by date and variety. "Oh I haven't got a clue who those would belong to." Or "This box has the same grouping of key coins that my friend dealer Y told me he was sending in."

But yes popular key dates DO tend to get a bump up of a grade, especially for the lower grade coins. One of the worst offenders is the 1916-D mercury dime. I have seen coins with no rim on either side and the rim worn halfway into the letters (a coin that would be Fair-2 for any other date) graded as G-4. If you find a piece that barely has full rims on both sides it will most likely be slabbed as a VG-8. I see this at coin shows ALL the time and I am talking about PCGS and NGC not the third tier services. (In fact it might be better to look at the third tier services, you might find more accurate grading on this issue. I can't say for sure, I haven't looked.)

 

In one of Travers' books I believe he interviewed a grader at a top TPG and the grader said that rare coins get a grade bump. I'll try to find the book and page number. I could have this mixed up.

On a seperate point, I am convinced that the graders at PCGS and NGC have no clue who has submitted what coins, but I do wonder if trend might play a role. For instance, if I send in a box of expensive, rare and impressive coins I wonder if I could get a "grouping" bump. I think it's human nature and the graders would realize that the person sending in the coins is obviously a big time dealer or collector and that much is at stake.

Although I will probably never experience this personally because my coins do not rise to the expensive ranks

 

Also, if you only send in five or ten coins they have to be dumb not to realize that it was submitted by a little guy.
Next time I'll try sending a couple of hundred key dates and a jumbo check. (yeah right, like that'll ever happen.)

 

So if I send in my 1913 Liberty head nickel, 1933 double eagle, 1804 S$1, 1964 Peace $, and my 1885 Trade $, 'they' will know I'm a little guy and grade harshly since I only sent in five coins? If you think a coin is overgraded and overpriced, then don't buy it.

 

Interesting topic - I can see where this over grading might make money for a big time collector, but not from me. I keep seeing all those Jules R. large cents on ebay and I skip them. Some of them look like they are graded correctly, but I feel like they expect me to pay a premium for the collectors name on the holder. Also I am going to do my best to pay money for the grade of the coin, not the grade on the holder.

I find it "interesting" that so much discussion occurs around TPG companies when the motto that keeps getting repeated here is "Buy the coin not the holder". So who really cares what they grade a coin - me, as the buyer, has the final say on what I will pay. Now I am off to keep searching....I have only bought three coins in two months(1832 VF, 1827 VF, 1981 Proof Type II) and I feel the need to find something. Been saying that to myself for 3 weeks now and still have not found something I like.

 

I agree - I am finding it hard just to find 1881 or 1882 IHC in XF or AU condition - seems like everything is MS64(or better) or AG to G. Been looking for a couple of months now. Sigh - guess it will be longer. The auction sites should pay me for bidding others up.

 

Check out this...
http://www.vtcoins.com/cat/Small+Cent
He has some in VF.....and he has now opened a shop in VT--if you email him he might be able to find the IHC your need in the grades you want.

Speedy

 

With VTcoins I find I have to request pictures and I do not always agree with his grading. I really dislike putting them through the process of scanning the coins and then not buying - but I have to see them. I wish they would just scan the coins as they add them.

It looks like he has added a couple I might be interested in - if I agree with the grade or price is right for what I think it grades. I may even ask opinions here - I think the 1871's and 1872 were over-graded. I do check his site on a regular basis and he has worked with me on prices - so do not get me wrong I do like the dealer.