1861-O Varieties and PCGS vs NGC....PCGS WINS

Hello, I'm still hyped up on the 1861-O half dollar on which coins were minted by the CSA. Bugert and Wiley have had a publishing out since January 1, 1993 on the 15 die marriages of the 1861-O half dollar. They did extensive research on coins from collectors and coins from the SS Republic to come up with the Die marriages that were minted by the confederacy, their results have confirmed 3 varieties. WB-102 die crack from upper obverse rim to Liberties nose, WB-103 bisecting date die crack from the lower obverse rim up to the rock under Liberty's feet and just touching the left side of the 6 in 1861 and WB-104 speared olive bud on the reverse. All Three coins are attributed to confederate minting. I am a member of NGC, now regretfully, and I noticed that they recognize only the WB-102 variety. PCGS recognizes all three varieties and has certified only 14 coins out of all varieties, 9 of the WB-102, 4 of the WB-103 and 1 of the WB-104. I called NGC and they have no real reason except to say that the CSA varieties of the 1861-O are not important and that they only grade the coin varieties listed in the Cherry Pickers Guide, so I take it that they will only certify one CSA Variety WB-102 and certify the other varieties as regular strikes. PCGS say they research publishing's on different varieties and will add them to their listings even though The Cherry Pickers Guide has not picked them up yet. I say the CSA minted 1861-O half dollars are very important and that they stand aside from the Union and Louisiana minted coins of that Era. Ed

 

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It sounds like NGC, and the Cherry Pickers Guide, need to get updated - those CSA die marriages are indeed important! Maybe they've never seen the articles written by Wiley.

 

They have seen them because they attributed ALL fourteen of the 1861-O varieties on the SS Republic coins. (And there are actually six varieties struck by Louisiana and six by the CSA. The US struck two varieties)

 

I believe they have seen them, they know of Wiley and Bugert because that's what the WB stands for, but they only confirm the WB-102. I believe they made a deal with the people that salvaged the SS Republic that the WB-102 would be the only one they would attribute to CSA mintage (or maybe not) if NGC would slab all their coins. I don't particularly like the shipwreck effect, it seems like they are cold and impersonal not like my holed 1861-O WB-103 AU55 half dollar. I might be wrong, I've been wrong more that right, Ed

 

Actually, Wiley identified 15 die marriages from the Leidman hoard, and the SS Republic hoard, of 1861-O halves. A lot of online information says 14, but the actual articles by Wiley list 15. I have a W-15, last batch on the emission sequence of minting.

 

I've never understood why NGC never embraced variety attribution. I know some NGC graders that will tell you the date of the coin based on looking at the reverse. Surely they now the die parings enough to offer the service.

 

When I talked to a man at NGC, not gonna name him, he said that varieties are too much trouble, I guess that's why they wait for varieties in the Cherry Pickers Guide, (apparently PCGS doesn't wait) NGC puts forth no effort to serve their paid members in this respect. That's why my new motto is "PCGS RULES", Ed

 

I was thinking that their excuse for not identifying all of the die marriages was that it was too much trouble for them. Lousy excuse IMHO. You would think they could at least ID the WB-101, 102, 103 and 104, or at least 102-104.

 

this is a message to me from an eBay seller on the subject

We know it's a CSA coin from the SS Republic, we just can't getNGC to grade it as such.
Thanks!
Steve- scardinal

 

Hah - I'd like to see him prove that, if it's not authenticated! Is it this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1861-O-Half-DIE-BREAK-IN-6-UNC-INV-77-10-/270814001732?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3f0dc5ba44#ht_500wt_1156

The seller on that one doesn't even appear to know that it's a speared olive bud on the reverse - easily seen in the large picture. I can barely see the die crack on the left side of the six.

http://www.collectsource.net/Photos12/12_61oh18.jpg

 

Actually 15, based on the research and identification documents I have by Wiley.

 

Forget the CSA factor, but do you know the standards to actually GET the ss republic designation. It's not a proven thing. It's either you submit batches (by you i mean the recovery team) - (An example is the oddysey marine exploration), or it doesn't get the designation. Even if a Odyssey workers took one of the ACTUAL ss republic recovered coins home, just a single one, and tried to submit it later- it wouldn't get the designation, because what proof is there. Sure, any conservationist at NCS can see it was affected by salt water, or shipwreck debris, but how can it be proved it was from the ss republic. The burden of proof is on the submitters.

Directly from NGC's website;

"NGC Shipwreck Certification performs three essential functions. First, the most important component of any shipwreck artifact is the documentation of its origins, and NGC Shipwreck Certification provides independent assurance of the pedigree of recovered artifacts. Second, NGC Shipwreck Certification also evaluates the condition of recovered artifacts using the only grading scale for shipwreck effect coinage. And third, NGC applies a suite of independent criteria to confirm that coins have been recovered in an archaeologically sound manner"

You can also get more informaion by this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcyH0H0ggtA

 

That's it,

 

Yes, I'm already very aware that experts often disagree, if there even is such a thing as a true expert. Although even "experts" can make mistakes, I'll trust Wiley till someone proves him incorrect. The documents I have by him are very thorough and quite explanatory, including a lot of pictures, as to the die identifiers used to check the 1861-O halves. He obviously spent a lot of time on his research of "regular" as well as the SS Republic coins, and his documentation is very thorough. Who knows - there may be even more varieties that haven't been identified. Even Breen made his share of mistakes, and I have to agree that no one is infallible.

 

That is because one of the 15 varieties of the 1861-O halves IS the CSA half dollar with the CSA rev die. The other 14 use US dies

 

nope - sorry, but that's not one in Wiley's numbers.

 

Mack, i just looked over that. I really appreciate it! Thanks so much.

 

Hunt1 - glad you found the docs interesting. You're welcome!