1861 IHC Pattern Judd 274

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by coyndevil36, Jun 29, 2022.

  1. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    Hi all , I was wondering if there is anyone on here who could help me out on where I may find any info or a picture of an 1861 IHC Die trial -Judd 274 ? I have looked all over the place even bought the Judd books but to no avail .

    Thank you for any help you can provide me !
    SensibleSal66 likes this.
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  3. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I looked also and could not find anything useful.:(
    Hopefully someone will figure this out for you. :)
  4. tibor

    tibor Supporter! Supporter

    I have the following book:
    United States Patterns and Related Issues
    Andrew W. Pollock III
    1994 Ed.
    It states the following:
    323 Copper. Plain Edge. Rarity-8. Judd-274 (not listed Davis or Adams-Woodin)
    (1) Kagin's, July1979, Metropolitan Washington, Lot 831*, AU
    Kagin's, January 1981, Lot 931*, AU
    (A) Parson's, Lot 401; Kagin's, August 1977, ANA, Lot 2165*, (same as 1?)
    Auction price realized 1981: $1250 (AU)

    The "323" is the Pollock number. The * indicates the coin was imaged
    in that particular catalogue.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
  5. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    Thank you Guys, I really appreciate the help !
    I believe I might just have such a coin as it appears to have the right color . I will need to get it examined- I'm guessing at a jeweler for elemental analysis ? I do not have it in hand right now as it's in the bank deposit box at this time but will post pics soon enough !
  6. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    J274_Kagins_1979_07.jpg @coyndevil36 Here ya go. Pic is from Kagin's auction of 1979 (lot is 881, not 831). Resolution wasn't great in those days. We're spoiled with digital pics these days.

    Last edited: Jun 30, 2022
    -jeffB likes this.
  7. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Here's another from Kagin's 1981 auction. Cal

    Pickin and Grinin and -jeffB like this.
  8. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    Woww , that's fantastic ! thank you Calcol for finding it , not the greatest to compare with as for color but at least its something . I really believe I might have found one. the one I have appears to have an underlaying reddish hue and looks exactly like a toned copper cent . there's just something about it that stands out from the rest . I need to attach a video or pics of it .... stay tuned folks !
    -jeffB likes this.
  9. tibor

    tibor Supporter! Supporter

    You wanna know if you have a pattern or regular issue? Send the coin to ANACS. Should cost around $40-$50 for a definite answer.
  10. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    That was another question for you guys , will any of the services even do an "elemental analysis" on it ? I'm really not trying to knock PCGS but I question if they even go out of the way to check things like that and I don't want to keep resubmitting coins as it gets very costly in the end !
    calcol likes this.
  11. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    Any ways for your viewing pleasure : IMG22.png img11.png
    -jeffB, HoledandCreative and kazuma78 like this.
  12. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Yes, NGC or PCGS will do an elemental analysis ... but it will cost a fair bit. Call them. My experience with PCGS is that they send coins out to a private lab for elemental analysis. The lab uses scanning electron microscopy. It's still based on an analysis of emitted x-rays, but instead of a high energy x-rays displacing orbital electrons (the case for handheld x-ray fluorescence analyzers), it uses high energy electrons. The advantage is that multiple spots on a coin's side can be analyzed.

    Some coin dealers have a handheld analyzer. If you can get one to do an analysis and the alloy turns out to be bronze, there's little sense in going further.

    Before springing for elemental analysis by a TPG, send the coin for grading. You don't want to pay extra for analyzing a fake. If the grading company agrees with your Judd number (and they might), there's probably not much value in elemental analysis unless you're really curious.

    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
    tibor likes this.
  13. 1865King

    1865King Well-Known Member

    Contact Richard Snow. He's the Indian Cent King. He's written great book on Flying Eagle and Indian Cents.
  14. 1865King

    1865King Well-Known Member

    The attached info is right from Richard Snows book. No Pictures but based on Richard comment I'm not surprised.

    Attached Files:

  15. dlts

    dlts Well-Known Member

    You might try becoming a member then submitting the coin photos to CONECA: https://board.conecaonline.org/
    They'll attribute it for free in the forum you choose and let you know what you have. They are very knowledgeable and quick about responding.
  16. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Judd-274 was struck from a set of regular dies. Difference is it's copper rather that bronze. In addition, there do not appear to be any high res photos of J-274 available. So just looking at the coin will probably not allow a determination of whether it is the pattern or regular coin. The Judd book, 10th ed., states, "elemental analysis is required".

    That said, an expert might be able to determine whether the coin is fake even if they can't determine whether it's the pattern or not.

    In addition, there have been cases in the past where coins were sent to PCGS, the form stated it was a particular pattern, and PCGS took the submitter's word for it even though an elemental analysis should have been performed. I personally bought such a coin, and after I had an elemental analysis performed, PCGS had to change the Judd number on the label.

    BTW, PCGS does not guarantee Judd numbers!

  17. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    Very Interesting, I would think they would do the right thing given they are a big outfit and all . I will have to call them and see what they say.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
  18. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    Yes, I will look into joining CONECA at this point as I do have other coins I need to have looked at .
    dlts likes this.
  19. coyndevil36

    coyndevil36 Member

    Thank you again all for your input. I will definitely have to do something with this coin at some point as I really think this is a true found specimen from the looks of it.
  20. tibor

    tibor Supporter! Supporter

    Would a specific gravity test determine the difference between copper and bronze?
    Cheech9712 likes this.
  21. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    I still don’t know what a Specific Gravity test is. Any help
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