1857 flying eagle with extra wing ????

Hey.... I'm new here . I just restarted collecting after a hiatus of about 25 years. Work got in the way,sort of. Anywho... I was looking on ebay at a 1857 flying eagle. The seller says it has an extra wing between the other 2. Could this be an error,a phony, or what. I never heard of either. You guys seem to know a whole bunch more than I do.Thanks in advance folks. CIA

 

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Could you give the number of the auction? People here might want to look at the coin.

 

Probably means this auction. Not sure what that is and I did not seen anything in the cherry pickers guide.

 

Mark,

You are probably right! I do not know of any Varieties with an extra wing. However, that does not mean they don't exist! It appears to be a Counter Die Clash and could be geniune. If so, it would be a nice addition to a similar type collection!


Frank

 

I agree - it very well could be a die clash and I did not mean to leave the impression it was not genuine. I just do not know what it is and did not see anything mentioned in my books. There are still plenty of discovery coins out there.

 

It sure looks like a clash but I'm not sure it matches up just right with the C (in cent) on the reverse. Interesting thread.

 

ldhair,

It does not appear to be a typical Die Clash and IMHO, it is a Counter Die Clash! In other words, the Obverse details (in this case, the Eagle) was Clashed on to a Reverse Die and the details were transferred back to the Obverse Die when the Obverse and Reverse Dies slammed into each other again during the minting process and with no planchet in the Striking Chamber. Also, it appears that one or the other Dies were misaligned when the original Die Clash occurred. The severely Clashed Reverse Die may or may not have been replaced with another Reverse Die before the minting of the coin. However, there is no way of knowing since the Reverse of the coin is not pictured in the Auction.


Frank

 

Frank:
Interesting details, thanks for the comments.

 

Maybe.

It all comes down to one question - is the "3rd wing" raised metal ? If so, IMO it's mint origin.

I can't tell from the picture, but the "3rd wing" almost looks incuse, like an old scratch which has recolored.

 

The seller's feedback isn't exactly sparkling....

 

Could someone here do an overlay of these two images?

 

I'd say it is a die clash, the only question is what has the die clashed with? So far everyone here has been assuming that it clashed with the reverse of a FE cent, but this is an 1857 and there was someone fooling around at the mint that year making various muled die combinations. We know about these because sometimes the dies clashed (none of the muled fantasies are known to exist.) The 1857 FE cent is known to come clashed with seated Liberty quarters, half dollars and double eagles. There is no reason to think that he didn't mule the dies with other coins as well. I don't see anything on the reverse of the FE cent that could account for the clashmarks I see on the obverse

 

Rick Snow looked at the image and thought it was just a normal clash but I'm not sure of that. There was not an image of the reverse in the auction.

There are 1857 quarters with the cent clash out there but they are tough to find.

 

So, did any Cointalker win it? If so, where are the photos of the reverse?

Bruce

 

Just incase someone reading this does not know how a clash is formed, when the 2 dies, reverse and obverse come togather without a coin between them, the result is part of the obverse die gets imprented into the reverse die and vice versa. Then when you strike the next coin, you get a coin showing the result of the clashed dies.

This image should give you an idea of what you are seeing.


It also give you a good idea of where to look for other die clashing on this coin.....Look between the eagles right wing and the tail feathers....there is some more clashing.

 

Thanks Coinzip, I hadn't considered a clash with the reverse die being that far misaligned.

What do you think cased the clashmarks above the eagles tail? A second die clash with the coins properly aligned" (Looks like they could come from the top of the T and N on a properly aligned clash.)

 

I think that if you really look closely, you will see that the Reverse details does not quite match to the Die Clash, extra wing or whatever you want to call it on the Obverse of the coin!


Frank

 

I don't think the overlay is right.
I don't see anything that is a match.
Edit to add.
I think the reverse should be a flip and not a mirror before it is used to overlay.

 

Ignore me.
The more I look at this the more confused I get