I am posting a couple closeups of the date strike on what I thought was an 1857 until I got a good closeup. This looks to me like it is a 1857/6... I know there is a 1858/7, but can't find anything else like this. What are your opinions?
I agree with the other assessments! What you see as a "7/6" in the Date, is actually a damaged "8", so the coin is an 1858 Flying Eagle Cent. The "8" was split down the middle by something sharp such as a knife blade and then suffered a hit that smashed much of the digit but especially the East half of the digit. Frank P.S. Welcome to Coin Talk!
dave: welcome to CT. And, sorry, but I do understand your logic, it just doesn't work here. Lets assume that you are correct, that it is an overdate, in those days of the mint, no biggie. (to collectors it is a biggie, but the mint just re-made the die and moved on.) Then, it is were an overdate, the coins would have been struck, and many thousands would have been produced. (Exactly how many in a die life is beyond my thought processes right now.) With an overdate this obvious, the variety would have been located with a short time of 1857. So, sorry, no chance. However, to keep you interested, a little story: During the late 1970's I had found an unusual war nickel. I showed it to many dealers on LI at the time and they told me that I was wrong, there was no overdate listed. To make a long story short: I left collecting to return to college, years later I found out that they had (in the interim) 'discovered' a new overdate: the 1943/2 war nickel. So, new finds can be found, but they will (most likely) be more subtle. so, good luck and keep searching.
Thank you Thank you all for looking and setting me straight. I wouldn't have asked under normal circumstances. In this case there were such a small number of the 1856 struck that it seemed possible to me that there could be in this case an extremely small number of the restrikes. The 1856 was a sample that was supposed to be returned to the mint, thus making the surviving 1856 very rare. Were the ones that were returned to the mint melted or destroyed? Or is it possible they were struck 1857? Under the microscope, my mind really sees the remnant of a '6' there. I try to see the '8' but it still looks like a '6'. Under normal vision, it is clearly a '7' and not a skewed '8'. It was bought as an 1857. The photo below shows the same '7' as others are struck. It seems unlikely that a knife and a hit could form such a perfect 7 to me.... Just a newbie.... so this is all educational to me. Again, thank you for looking.
Damage and it must have been a heck of a hit because these coins are hard, maybe the hardest alloy ever used for US coinage. Ruben
The last digit is clearly a damaged "8" to me! The center of the loops in the "8" were split perfectly down the middle by something sharp and the digit took a hit from something that somewhat separated the two halfs and smashed and spread out the lower two-thirds of the East half of the loops. See attached edited pictures below. Frank
Dave: I'll try to answer in order: #1: The 1856 was NOT a 'sample' but, originally a pattern cent. #2: They were not returned to the mint for descruction, in fact, they were so popular and there was such a demand for them that the mint produced many others years later. (anything for a buck, no different from today, just not back dated).
That answers that. Thanks for clarifying. It is great to be able to get the facts from you all. Is there anyway to tell from the reverse of the coin that it is indeed 1858? Would like the label to be accurate so 10 years from now I don't go through this all again! Thanks.
Dave, Sometimes you can match a coin to a specific Reverse Die for that year! However, your coin may be in too bad of condition to be able to make out any identifying Die Markers that are known for any of the Reverse Dies used in 1858. The next dilemma is to find a book or reference that identify the Reverse Dies used that year and the Die Markers for each. Photos of coins matching each Die would also be a plus! Frank
The huntsman has the right idea. Check the dies for the 1857s and you may be able to identify what that coin is and was before the post mint damage. There are enough reference books out there on the Flying Eagles to pin this one down. Try Rick Snow's attribution guides for this coin. It'll be there. Bruce
It really doesn't appear that what you see as a seven matches the seven on a known actual example. For that matter, the one and the five look a bit off too, but I'm not up on varieties on this series.
Hi, From all I read on the FE series, there is no known 1857/6. I agree with the others--it may simply be damage, or somebody once tried to push metal around to create a 6. There is an intriguing variety for 1857 that was minted early that year. Two undated pattern dies from 1856 were dated 1857 and used to strike cents for circulation. This is known as the "Obverse type of 1856", and is the closest to an 1856 pattern that most of us can possibly own. I sometimes see them unattributed at shows--as well as on eBay. The differences are seen in the obverse lettering, and it's one way to verify a genuine 1856. If you post a detail of the lettering OF AMERICA, I can check. :thumb:
I think based on what I am seeing that Kurts answer makes the most sense to me. Somebody tried to tool the last digit. I would forward these pictures to either Ken Potter, John Wexler, Mike Diamond or Rick Snow. Those are the experts. Rick Snow by far the most prominent in the FE Series. I spoke yesterday to Ken Potter about this coin, he said its highly doubtful that it could happen at the mint, but not willing to rule it out either. He has seen stranger things.
As a bit of useful info, there is a way to confirm an 1856 FE cent using diagnostics other than the actual date. Such details are seldom attempted by those who manipulate the date, and are unique to the 1856 obverse type. Every obverse die made for 1856 will show these details (including the 1857 type of 1856 which is not an overdate). Below I have compared an 1856 FE to the large letters type used from 1857-58. 1. For 1856, the inner shape of the O within "OF" is rectangular, particularly in the upper edge. Compare this to the more oval shape post-1856. Because this shape varies between strike, it must be confirmed by: 2. On 1856 FE cents, the middle serif of F in OF has an exaggerated lower point with concavity on the outer edge of the flare. The normal 1857 has a straight outer edge with a less pronounced lower serif. 3. The lower apex of the M in AMERICA for 1856 is thin with a bulbous end; the normal 1857 M is a point more widely centered between serifs.
What I can tell form the pic it looks to be a post damage 1858 Large Letters FE. But I agree with Huntsman and would like to see the Reverse, this can tell us if it is a High or Low Leaves Reverse Type of 57 or 58. Dave can you post a pic of the Reverse out of the 2X2?
